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  1. #21
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    OP needs to look up anarcho-syndicalism.

    Industrialization and specialization encourage individualistic thought, as the team concept is entirely unnecessary within these paradigms. Real performance becomes increasingly separated from the contributions of others, and the relationship a person has with society thus individuates.

  2. #22
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    OP needs to look up anarcho-syndicalism.
    Yeah, that was what I was going to recommend.


    Oh, and

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Also, looking at [Ayn Rand's] face makes my penis go inside of me.
    I love you.


  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Market capitalism as envisaged by Adam Smith wasnt social darwinist, it was a system or series of trends which he felt would result in eventual equality of condition by producing over abundance of all things in demand, it would do so by harnessing the worst traits of individuals and putting them at the service of the common good. He felt that altruism and other social conventions would be sufficient to supply the needs of those excluded from or unwilling to take up employment.

    It could only at best be described as accidentially social darwinist (although arguably Darwin wasnt a social darwinist either) and the trends you mentioned, like concentration of wealth and consequently power, are market failures, predictable if you consider how Marx said that economics had been transformed into an ideology to service special interests following its distortion in practice by the most enduring of social institutions that is social class and class struggles.

    Socialism, well, depends what you mean by that I'm afraid, its used mainly in a prejorative sense which has distorted its meaning, in some countries its served as the ideology of special interests in the way that capitalism has served in others. In both instances the ideology is supported or endorsed by those whose interests it doesnt directly serve. For mainly reasons of culture or values.

    I support socialism, definitely from the stand point of ethics, although I dont confuse it with state paternalism or mixed economies, which are just consequences of modern functionally complex societies and economies. Equally dont believe that the state is a means for either introducing or furthering the goals of socialism.

    Social darwinism isnt just morally dubious or bankrupt, it doesnt work, for a long, long time it was the accepted theory and practice globally and locally and it wasnt that successful at creating an equitable or efficient society and economy.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    OP needs to look up anarcho-syndicalism.

    Industrialization and specialization encourage individualistic thought, as the team concept is entirely unnecessary within these paradigms. Real performance becomes increasingly separated from the contributions of others, and the relationship a person has with society thus individuates.
    Hmm, yeah, if what he's looking for is an overly intricate and exacting theory which is removed from systemic realities, good moral philosophy, if you're still at that stage in life were you need a single theory to identify with.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Just thought I'd mention for information a couple of things, Daniel Bell who wrote "The Cultural Contradictions of Capitalism" which I got this week and have only read extracts from before now described himself as a cultural conservative, political liberal and socialist economist. He's suggested that this is the modern condition.

    Kolakowski who wrote a history of Marxism had this to say and perhaps you'll find it interesting:

    conlibsoc

    Eric Fromm's Man For Himself and Sane Society are great accounts which expose the lies at the heart of and animating most conservative and liberal anti-socialism, both about socialist character, character in general and socialism as they have sought to misrepresent it. The biggest, possibly simplist element being that individuals are not lazy, shiftless, malingering by nature, they are instead boredom detesting, productive and possess powerful innate work ethics, laziness is a pathology of modernism. Success in the capitalist economy requires conformity to neurotic or even psychotic character traits, if you dont possess them you need to do a good impression.

    Chris Lasch in his books The Culture of Narcissism, The Minimal Self etc. is a paleocon (he pretty much had a different prescription or utopia to Fromm, not that different but more distinctly patriotic and traditionalist) who has A LOT in common with Fromm's social critique.

    Probably confused you, its not a straight choice between socialism and libertarianism, they arent even, properly understood, polar opposites and we dont live in a binary world. There are no pure examples in practice and they would be costly and create misery if they did exist, in reality there are mixed imperfect systems and people support those that conform more or less to their personal values.

    I'd recommend you read Neil Thompson's Anti-Oppressive Practice if you're still wrestling with personal dilemmas or search AOP, its a theory for social workers and youth workers but its pretty interesting, seeks to translate all the "liberation ideologies" into practice with a proper sense of perspective and breaks down systems, change, self-perpetuating oppression into the personal, cultural and structural.

    From experience I can tell you your sphere of concern could be structural, you could read about ideologies which focus on that as a starting point, your sphere of action on the other hand will only be personal, perhaps less than a dozen people, and if you're lucky, cultural.

  6. #26
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Hmm, yeah, if what he's looking for is an overly intricate and exacting theory which is removed from systemic realities, good moral philosophy, if you're still at that stage in life were you need a single theory to identify with.
    Conceptually, to reevaluate the dichotomy set up, not as a desirable political theory.

  7. #27
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Because it establishes a class system in which money becomes centralized and confined to a select few wealthy individuals while the lowest minority wallows in impoverishment.
    Not in the age of home offices, internet commerce, telecommuting and the low-cost startup. Western industrialization and early capitalism were encumbered with the last remnants of aristocracy, but those limitations receded at least three decades ago. You won't be able to find a contemporary example of an American enterprise thwarted by social constraints. In fact, most success stories begin in contention against all odds.

    Socialism, on the other hand, establishes caste systems according to political influence; subjugating lower classes to public dependency while enriching, and exempting from legal/confiscatory constraints, a tiny and immovable elite. So you have it backwards. How this can be missed from history over the last 90 years is beyond me, but now is the time to learn.

    Want guidance? Read Reason magazine. And Milton Friedman.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Just thought I'd mention for information a couple of things, Daniel Bell who wrote "The Cultural Contradictions of Capitalism" which I got this week and have only read extracts from before now described himself as a cultural conservative, political liberal and socialist economist. He's suggested that this is the modern condition.

    Kolakowski who wrote a history of Marxism had this to say and perhaps you'll find it interesting:

    conlibsoc

    Eric Fromm's Man For Himself and Sane Society are great accounts which expose the lies at the heart of and animating most conservative and liberal anti-socialism, both about socialist character, character in general and socialism as they have sought to misrepresent it. The biggest, possibly simplist element being that individuals are not lazy, shiftless, malingering by nature, they are instead boredom detesting, productive and possess powerful innate work ethics, laziness is a pathology of modernism. Success in the capitalist economy requires conformity to neurotic or even psychotic character traits, if you dont possess them you need to do a good impression.

    ......

    I'd recommend you read Neil Thompson's Anti-Oppressive Practice if you're still wrestling with personal dilemmas or search AOP, its a theory for social workers and youth workers but its pretty interesting, seeks to translate all the "liberation ideologies" into practice with a proper sense of perspective and breaks down systems, change, self-perpetuating oppression into the personal, cultural and structural.
    Thanks!

  9. #29
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    Not in the age of home offices, internet commerce, telecommuting and the low-cost startup. Western industrialization and early capitalism were encumbered with the last remnants of aristocracy, but those limitations receded at least three decades ago. You won't be able to find a contemporary example of an American enterprise thwarted by social constraints. In fact, most success stories begin in contention against all odds.

    Socialism, on the other hand, establishes caste systems according to political influence; subjugating lower classes to public dependency while enriching, and exempting from legal/confiscatory constraints, a tiny and immovable elite. So you have it backwards. How this can be missed from history over the last 90 years is beyond me, but now is the time to learn.

    Want guidance? Read Reason magazine. And Milton Friedman.
    I'd recommend against this, unless you want justification for killing brown people in far-away lands, in the name of "efficiency".

  10. #30
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I'd recommend against this, unless you want justification for killing brown people in far-away lands, in the name of "efficiency".
    Actually, the "brown people" in Hong Kong, who enjoy the freest economy in the world, are doing far better than most of the West.

    Edit: For the OP's additional education, read the factors of economic liberty (via the first link) in depth. They crystallize, in plain and literal terms, the differences between open markets and highly regulated ones.

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