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View Poll Results: do you support a public smoking ban?

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  • yes, I support a smoking ban both indoors and outdoors

    17 22.08%
  • yes, I support a smoking ban, but only indoors

    32 41.56%
  • no, I do not support a smoking ban/keep things as they were

    28 36.36%
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Thread: smoking ban

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    There are only two inalienable rights - the right to life and the right to liberty.
    Again what definition supports this?


    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Smoking doesn't even begin to fit in there. Neither does race, sex or anything else... because it doesn't discriminate against the type of human to start with.
    It obviously does not fit in with your definition of inalienable rights. I'm just not sure what that definition is or where it comes from. Could you provide a definition and a source for such a unique definition?


    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Smoking is not a part of being "human" in any way. No action is protected under these rights.
    If you have, as the authors of The Declaration of Independence have, excepted the fact that it is an inalienable right to pursue happiness then smoking falls under that right and that right should also protect smoking. Furthermore, if you apply the correct and accepted definition of inalienable right you could not deny that smoking is an inalienable right. Again this realization is impossible if you don't examine the real and true definition of inalienable rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    So, to be clear - you defend your stance with "sheep" and other rhetoric... but you are championing government intervention in order to protect a non-right. Specifically, you wish to decrease liberty by telling people who they can and cannot associate and work with. You are not protecting the rights of the smokers at all - they are allowed to smoke where it does not impact on others. Instead, you are allowing their choices to impact on others and then limiting what others can do about it.
    This would be true only if one were to accept the unfounded definition of inalienable rights you seem to be basing your argument on. Really there are only two inalienable rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    As far as the inalienable rights argument goes, it is quite contrary to what you are claiming.

    lol. You make it sound as though you have presented some kind of evidence to prove this statement to be true but really you have not proven anything. I can stand by my arguments because I have shown how smoking fits with the definition of inalienable rights. I have not seen any argument that discredits these definitions because they are the universally excepted definitions.

    You have posted some statements that seem to have no basis such as "There are only two inalienable rights - the right to life and the right to liberty." But where did that come from? What definition are you using in order to claim that? How did you arrive at that conclusion? I'm only pointing this out because until you can effectively show me your reasoning I can never accept them as truths. I could only assume that they sounded good so you posted them.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by samIam View Post
    You have posted some statements that seem to have no basis such as "There are only two inalienable rights - the right to life and the right to liberty." But where did that come from? What definition are you using in order to claim that? How did you arrive at that conclusion? I'm only pointing this out because until you can effectively show me your reasoning I can never accept them as truths. I could only assume that they sounded good so you posted them.
    Sorry, I read this several times and I do apologies. It sounds really offensive when I read it back. I don't mean to offend you and I really do have a genuine interest in finding out what this other definition could be. Sorry if it sounds rude.

    Maybe I should have used some emoticons....



    better?

  3. #203
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samIam View Post
    Again what definition supports this?
    That's the definition of inalienable rights. Rights that cannot be legitimately taken away (they are generally defined as reciprical rights - that is, they maximise their own value).

    The right to "pursue happiness" is actually a liberty right - the right to do what you wish without interferance from others (and on the other side, the same goes for the other person, of whom you cannot interfere with).

    Smoking is not a 'right' - it is a subset of liberty, that you are allowed to smoke so long as it does not break the other right (for example, smoking at someone else's house, etc).

    (There are many versions of inalienable rights, but they all tend to wrap up into these - like the right to self governance, equal before law, etc... )

    If you have, as the authors of The Declaration of Independence have, excepted the fact that it is an inalienable right to pursue happiness then smoking falls under that right and that right should also protect smoking. Furthermore, if you apply the correct and accepted definition of inalienable right you could not deny that smoking is an inalienable right. Again this realization is impossible if you don't examine the real and true definition of inalienable rights.
    Yes - have you read Common Sense? It was the philisophical foundation of the rights you are talking about.

    I have not seen any argument that discredits these definitions because they are the universally excepted definitions.
    That's because I haven't made one. The topic here is about you wanting to tell someone that they can or cannot fire someone because they smoke. People are free to smoke on their own and people are free to fire [/i]for any reason[/i]. Both are part of inalienable rights, although externalities of smoking make it a complicated bit... so the argument is that smoking does indeed carry a cost - for example, smoking increases the cost of healthcare for the company (which insures you). So you are impacting others... but then they say that they won't - and then they sue to get the government to force another to take responsibility for the individual's actions (the same goes for firing).

    The point is that the government isn't banning smoking and corporations cannot ban smoking - no rights violation can happen until the ban (the use of force) is present. It's no more a rights violation than me saying I won't go out with a friend because they smoke. They are allowed to smoke, if they wish, but I won't be around them. That's what the company is saying.

  4. #204
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    And the kicker:

    3) People dying from smoking-related ailments may not constitute the drain on public finances that they are often assumed to. First of all, they die earlier than they otherwise would have, which in a country like mine (and Canada?) means they forgo several years of state-financed pension. Second, it's not like all non-smokers die of inexpensive heart attacks. Many of the people who succumb to smoking-related ailments would have ended up draining the public health care system anyway sooner or later. The smoker who dies at age 65 of a smoking-related ailment instead of withdrawing his pension for ten years and then dying of another drawn-out disease is actually doing the rest of us a favor.
    Update: This is true! In the Netherlands, anyway. Link

  5. #205
    Large Member Ender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Update: This is true! In the Netherlands, anyway. Link
    It's true everywhere. Here in Canada for the 05-06 fiscal year the government took in well over $8billion in taxes from Tobacco products alone. Thats on top of all the normal taxes that smokers and non smokers alike pay.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    I don't want it, I just need it, to breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

    Never take life to seriously.. No one gets out alive in the end anyway.

  6. #206
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    About a year ago I was sitting on a bus when a woman who absolutely stank sat down in a chair perpendicular to mine.

    It was her perfume, it what so disgustingly overpowering that I felt faint. It choked all the consumable air around me and I was in serious distress. I moved down the chair to get away from her but it was not enough. Just the thought that this aroma was steaming off her clammy rotund flesh and invading the most sensitive parts of my face made me want to retch. My disgust was winning a battle with my affability and I knew it would not be long before this woman found out my opinion on her reeking stench.

    Then my knight in shining armour appeared. A man, about fortyish, who got on at a recent stop sat between me and this leviathan. Not only that, but this man had been smoking. I was in love. I actively sucked down the warm ashy taste he gave off and I was in a heaven I could only appreciate after escaping the gates of hell.

    So if people do plan to ban smoking, I implore the planet, please, oh please, kill this bitch first.
    Why do we always come here?

    I guess we'll never know.

    It's like a kind of torture,
    To have to watch this show.

  7. #207
    Senior Member Mr Galt's Avatar
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    If somebody starts smoking and you don't like it, leave. It's really that simple.

    I voted no by the way.
    But sir, your opinion is wrong.
    TANSTAAFL!

  8. #208
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Galt View Post
    If somebody starts smoking and you don't like it, leave. It's really that simple.

    I voted no by the way.
    If somebody lights up a bundle of leaves doused in chemicals and wrapped in bleached paper, starts waving it around, and you don't like it, leave. It's really that simple.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  9. #209
    Senior Member Mr Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    If somebody lights up a bundle of leaves doused in chemicals and wrapped in bleached paper, starts waving it around, and you don't like it, leave. It's really that simple.
    I believe that's what I said.
    But sir, your opinion is wrong.
    TANSTAAFL!

  10. #210
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    I hate the smell of smoke and it irritates my sinuses really bad. I cannot deny that I like the fact that smoking is banned in public places where I live. I do not allow smoking in my home when people visit.

    However, I think that trying to ban smoking outdoors, in bars or in people's private homes is going too far. If people want to do that to themselves, they should have the right, the product is legal after all. I also do not support high sin taxes on smoking.

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