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View Poll Results: do you support a public smoking ban?

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  • yes, I support a smoking ban both indoors and outdoors

    17 22.08%
  • yes, I support a smoking ban, but only indoors

    32 41.56%
  • no, I do not support a smoking ban/keep things as they were

    28 36.36%
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Thread: smoking ban

  1. #131
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm not going to say anything about banning them, but I do think drinking alcohol and riding a motorcycle is stupid. I don't' do those things.
    I don't really see how this is so hard.
    It's so hard because you fail to see that neither what you think is stupid, nor what you do or don't do, is a valid yardstick for how a free society conducts itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    There are two different enjoyable things, and one has more benefits and less problems than the other, so you do that one.
    Eh? eh?

    First of all, a cheeseburger gives you sustenance, a cigarette does not.
    Secondly, The desire to eat one is more understandable, because it was wired in your head from the start. You had to make the mistake of smoking to develop a dependency on smoking.

    Cheeseburger every two weeks, probably not as bad as smoking every day.
    Especially if that's a quality burger.
    Eating an McDonald's cheeseburger everyday? Yeah, that is worse than smoking, and what the hell are you doing?!
    I am against that, but I can't think of anyway to ban that.
    When you eat a cheeseburger, it is at least not forcing me to choke on cheeseburger smoke.

    For the record, I respond to sam by pointing-out that I do have a bone to pick with the obese. They are hurting they medical system worse than smokers.
    What I see you objecting to are people who are further out on the risk vs. reward curve than you are.

    I can see that there are social costs associated with smoking and cheeseburgers. What I am trying to point out is that you are only seeing the social costs.

    I would not willingly live in a society in which every substance or activity with a potential social cost was outlawed, and I suspect that after considering it, neither would you.

    I want you to see that the individual's desires and sense of reward deserve some consideration alongside your aversion to things that are "...hurting the medical system."

  2. #132
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Once again, I can't help but feel that this is all overlooking the fact that I only voted for an indoor ban.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #133
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I would not willingly live in a society in which every substance or activity with a potential social cost was outlawed, and I suspect that after considering it, neither would you.
    I'm just curious - would you want to live in a society in which no activity/substance with a social cause was outlawed?

    If not, and I'm assuming I don't have to go ad absurdum with nuclear weapons or some such, how do you calculate which item has a high enough social cost/etc to justify outlawing/banning/controlling/limiting?

  4. #134
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'm just curious - would you want to live in a society in which no activity/substance with a social cause was outlawed?

    If not, and I'm assuming I don't have to go ad absurdum with nuclear weapons or some such, how do you calculate which item has a high enough social cost/etc to justify outlawing/banning/controlling/limiting?
    EXCELLENT question, and one for which I do not have a well thought-out answer.

    However, I am convinced that public policy about such matters as smoking ought to be formed within the tension of those two opposing impulses, one to give individuals freedom and the other to give society safety.

  5. #135
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    I suspect that many non-smokers that are emphatic about banning smoking are more control freaks than champions of social wellbeing. I don't mind being around smoke or smokers so I will find myself near them when they are smoking. I find nothing more irritating than a fake cough by a non-smoker who happens to walk by up wind and 30 feet away from the smokers. When grouped together with other control freaks you will see them wavering their hands about and wrinkling up their faces while complaining about smokers to someone they are walking with.

    To me this person has a more of an issue with wanting to shape society to his or her personal preference than anything else.

    I oppose any restrictions on any rights I or anyone else currently enjoys. Even if that restriction does not cause any change for me. I realize that personal freedoms are more precious than my occasional annoyances. I don't particularly think its right to sell an extremely obese person 3 burgers, 2 large fries and a large diet code but I think it's even more wrong to restrict that persons freedom.

    This is not to say that I advocate anarchy and the abolishment of all laws.

  6. #136
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    EXCELLENT question, and one for which I do not have a well thought-out answer.

    However, I am convinced that public policy about such matters as smoking ought to be formed within the tension of those two opposing impulses, one to give individuals freedom and the other to give society safety.
    This I agree with - just checking if that was what you were referring to (the implicit cost of not having freedom being hard to quantify, but still present).

    FWIW, I personally believe that smoking should be banned entirely. Any transport system that is both addictive and so highly correlated to medical issues deserves very high control. However, I disagree with many of the other bans we have (including some schedule 1 drugs, like marijuanna). I would simply prefer a far more rational approach to how drugs are controlled, period, with the question being exactly what you describe... what defines appropriate control?

    Sometimes it's trees for the forest. Banning smoking isn't a good move unless we redo the logic behind why it is being banned - otherwise you simply get "banning creep" (ratcheting of control).

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'm just curious - would you want to live in a society in which no activity/substance with a social cause was outlawed?

    If not, and I'm assuming I don't have to go ad absurdum with nuclear weapons or some such, how do you calculate which item has a high enough social cost/etc to justify outlawing/banning/controlling/limiting?
    My reflex answer is to say apply some common sense, but every day I find that it's not so common.

  8. #138
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samIam View Post
    My reflex answer is to say apply some common sense, but every day I find that it's not so common.
    Common sense that cannot be broken down into a defined argument is not common sense - it's personal opinion. It really has nothing to do with common sense - common sense is just a socialised heuristic (why should women vote? It's just common sense that they aren't as smart... that still exists in parts of the world, and it existed here too not that long ago). The problem is that while it allows one to solve a problem quickly or closely, it's limited to subjective experiences and often its only backing is "that it just works that way". Common sense is also typically is full of errors - a very poor substitute for just "sense".

  9. #139
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    My definition of common sense would exclude smoking.

    And why can't I be a control freak and a champion?
    Freedom is like sooo overrated. :rolli:
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Freedom is like sooo overrated. :rolli:

    :steam: Careful... next you'll want my guns.

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