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View Poll Results: do you support a public smoking ban?

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  • yes, I support a smoking ban both indoors and outdoors

    17 22.08%
  • yes, I support a smoking ban, but only indoors

    32 41.56%
  • no, I do not support a smoking ban/keep things as they were

    28 36.36%
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Thread: smoking ban

  1. #121
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    No you're not. You're some kinda mouse!

    I hates mieces to pieces
    Well, don't look in your kitchen cupboards just yet... I'm not done nibbling on your saltines.

    I'll leave some little black-rice-looking calling cards for you.


  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I meant that it balances. FWIW, I also provided the data that shows that it doesn't.


    I included the math for you to show that smoking related effects are greater than the income taken in from taxation. True, I didn't multiply the numbers for you, but in case you were curious, it doesn't.
    You did post some numbers but none that specifically addressed taxes collected for smoking vs. healthcare costs. That's fine though because it has already been done before.

    I tried to make more logical arguments without having to do too much research and posting links to a bunch of experts in the field. Apparently this was an error of judgment on my part. I will do my best to not do that again. Here is some proof of my previous statement about healthcare costs vs. taxes collected for tobacco users.

    This is a real good article you should read it.

    http://www.heartland.org/publicPDF/Poop.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by ARTICLE View Post
    Harvard Professor Kip Viscusi has repeatedly demonstrated that
    smokers already pay more in excise taxes than the social costs of their
    habits. Even before the MSA, “excise taxes on cigarettes equal or exceed
    the medical care costs associated with smoking.” For example, Illinois’
    cigarette taxes, according to Viscusi, were $0.13 more per pack than the
    social costs of smoking before the settlement added $0.40 to the price of a
    pack of cigarettes, before the $0.40 a pack tax hike approved by the state
    legislature in 2002, and before Cook County’s $0.82 a pack boost in 2004.
    Instead of raising cigarette taxes, simple justice demands that cigarette
    taxes be reduced to zero. In fact, states should consider taping a dime or a
    quarter to every pack of cigarettes as a way of thanking smokers for
    reducing the burden on taxpayers!

    It even appears that my estimate of 1 in five smokers dieing from tobacco was way over estimated.

    Quote Originally Posted by ARTICLE View Post
    How harmful is smoking to smokers? Public health advocates who claim
    one out of every three, or even one out of every two, smokers will die from
    a smoking-related illness are grossly exaggerating the real threat. The actual
    odds of a smoker dying from smoking before the age of 75 are about 1 in
    12. In other words, 11 out of 12 life-long smokers don’t die before the age
    of 75 from a smoking-related disease.
    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I gave you the math, taken from the government (US, except for the cost allocation - the US doesn't track it because of the privatised care). Smoking contributes about 1% to healthcare, but problems directly related to smoking would be far more than that.
    wrong.... see above.


    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Smokers don't pay their own fair share, never mind sharing the detrimental effects on others.
    wrong.... see above.


    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    If no one used transportation, then the human population would be a fraction of the current population.
    I'm not convinced that is true. Society would have to restructure but the numbers may not have to be reduced.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Don't worry, you can still smoke at home and outside.
    I don't smoke. But I'm glad I have your permission to do so. Could you please write to your government officials and convince them not to infringe on my life choices?

  3. #123
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samIam View Post
    You did post some numbers but none that specifically addressed taxes collected for smoking vs. healthcare costs. That's fine though because it has already been done before.
    Uhmmm... I did. Those were the net taxes taken in from tobacco sales... both state and federal.

    The healthcare costs I quoted weren't for the states, because the states uses guesstimates (and is politically motivated). Here in Canada, we do keep track of it as part of our medicare system.

    My numbers were literally just taxes collected + healthcare costs due to smoking related diseases.

    As far as the article - did you really refer me to an article called "Don't poop on my salad"...? Even skimming it I see contradictory information, selective bias and what not.

    The numbers that I used are publicly available with a google search - just look for taxes collected and search for smoking related healthcare costs.

    Of course, some of the money that is being talked about was punishment for lying about the nature of cigarettes and knowingly getting people addicted - normally, however, that involves jail time... but cigarettes are different for some reason. I'm actually for a ban of cigarettes (putting them in class I drugs, but removing stuff like weed to class III or so) because of the addictive nature.

    I'm not convinced that is true. Society would have to restructure but the numbers may not have to be reduced.
    You are telling me that you think society would exist as it does now without the combustion engine...? Power generators? Indoor heating? Cooking?

  4. #124
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Okay.
    Introvert stuck in a student house with three extroverts and expected to socialise and such even when that meant meeting people in a strange city. Talk about anxiety.

    This was where I was at when I first started smoking.

    Afterwards....

    Can talk for ages, approach people (still not happy about it at the time), socialise and stuff.
    But that's kind of sad. That's giving in to a bad choice because of social pressure.
    Granted, in sense, you could say that's true of using fossil fuels, but the practical demand is very, very different.
    Smoking just because it's hard to socialize? That's like being straight just because it's such a bother to be gay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I know there's probably half a dozen alternatives but that's like correcting someone who brought a kite to a parachute jump half way down. You may be correct but you are just too late.
    Even if there are plenty of people for which it's too late, there are plenty more people that haven't started yet.
    I'd like to prevent them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Besides I dislike all this so called medical research stuff. Every year there are five more things I shouldn't do and five things I must do. Half the time they overlap!
    But you have to trust some of them. You can't go living life without believing any of these things. As far as medical research goes, the effects of smoking have been known for about fifty years. That reality isn't changing much.
    Besides, just use some common sense. You take a stick full of tarred crap, light it on fire, and inhale the smoke.
    Is it hard to imagine a health risk?

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    This is a dangerous mode of thinking. It applies equally to eating cheeseburgers, riding motorcycles, flying ultralight aircraft, drinking red wine, shooting skeet...

    There is no compelling reason to do any of these things, frankly... but the individual's freedom to do them is precious indeed

    A society would be foolish to throw these freedoms away in the interest of a little safety, or (worse) a little economy.

    I'm not going to say anything about banning them, but I do think drinking alcohol and riding a motorcycle is stupid. I don't' do those things.
    I don't really see how this is so hard.
    There are two different enjoyable things, and one has more benefits and less problems than the other, so you do that one.
    Eh? eh?

    First of all, a cheeseburger gives you sustenance, a cigarette does not.
    Secondly, The desire to eat one is more understandable, because it was wired in your head from the start. You had to make the mistake of smoking to develop a dependency on smoking.

    Cheeseburger every two weeks, probably not as bad as smoking every day.
    Especially if that's a quality burger.
    Eating an McDonald's cheeseburger everyday? Yeah, that is worse than smoking, and what the hell are you doing?!
    I am against that, but I can't think of anyway to ban that.
    When you eat a cheeseburger, it is at least not forcing me to choke on cheeseburger smoke.

    For the record, I respond to sam by pointing-out that I do have a bone to pick with the obese. They are hurting they medical system worse than smokers.

    Throwing a ball at a wall is completely harmless, and pretty damn cheap. Just because it is enjoyable doesn't put it on the same spectrum as smoking.

    Cost analysis?
    You pro-smoking people are so all-or-nothing.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Uhmmm... I did. Those were the net taxes taken in from tobacco sales... both state and federal.


    The healthcare costs I quoted weren't for the states, because the states uses guesstimates (and is politically motivated). Here in Canada, we do keep track of it as part of our Medicare system.

    My numbers were literally just taxes collected + healthcare costs due to smoking related diseases.
    No your numbers were for taxes collected + total healthcare costs regardless of smoking habits.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    As far as the article - did you really refer me to an article called "Don't poop on my salad"...? Even skimming it I see contradictory information, selective bias and what not.
    Judging an article on the fact that you read the tittle and skimmed it? Nice, Let me guess, you only read the headlines in the news papers too huh?

    And where did your "numbers come from? No link? No references? Completely accurate and trustworthy I’m sure. Nobody ever makes things up on the Internet.

    You are telling me that you think society would exist as it does now without the combustion engine...? Power generators? Indoor heating? Cooking?
    I never said that. I said the number of people could be the same. Were you skimming again?

  6. #126
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Am I the only one that imagines "nyah nyah nyah" at the end of each of samIam's posts?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #127
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samIam View Post
    No your numbers were for taxes collected + total healthcare costs regardless of smoking habits.
    Toquote myself here;


    Course, I don't know how it is measured in the states, but Canada's "smoking costs" are about 2.5 billion (health care only - roughly 15-20 billion in the built up model, including opportunity costs)... multiply that by 10ish (population), adjust upward for the amount the US spends on healthcare (about 1.6 I think, maybe higher) and for the higher amount of smokers (not much difference, about 19% vs 20%).


    Just for reference, these are "smoking only costs" for Canada, which is very similar (just less mokers, less expensive and less people) to the US. That's what I'm referring too - a hard collection of information.

    Judging an article on the fact that you read the tittle and skimmed it? Nice, Let me guess, you only read the headlines in the news papers too huh?
    No, not really. I read research papers normally. I just found it amusing that your argument was based on this.

    And where did your "numbers come from? No link? No references? Completely accurate and trustworthy I
    Wonderful. I go and get all the references and you had a special character in your post. I only care so much.

    The numbers are from the US treasury, but you can find them if you just google for it (MSN had it, I think). The other numbers are from the public health board in Canada. These aren't "hidden" numbers, or built up numbers, these are tax reciepts. They are publicly available.

    Mods, are we going to fix this anytime soon?

  8. #128
    Junior Member Figmentum's Avatar
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    I love what my brother says when people look disgustingly at him, as he smokes. "What bitch? It's either second hand, or the pimp hand!" Both times he said it I was slightly inebriated, so it was funnier then.
    What better way to rid the world of all the walking waste? - Nothingface

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Am I the only one that imagines "nyah nyah nyah" at the end of each of samIam's posts?
    No. I imagine it too!

  10. #130
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    But that's kind of sad. That's giving in to a bad choice because of social pressure.
    Granted, in sense, you could say that's true of using fossil fuels, but the practical demand is very, very different.
    Smoking just because it's hard to socialize? That's like being straight just because it's such a bother to be gay.
    Isn't that what some people resort to doing? Sure it's illogical but so are many things which happen everyday. It was a solution which I stumbled upon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Even if there are plenty of people for which it's too late, there are plenty more people that haven't started yet.
    I'd like to prevent them.
    Yup. Me too. I won't give cigarettes to anyone but smokers. Those who choose to give up will find me extremely recalcitrant if they ask for a cigarette. Basically until they go out and buy their own and start again they'll not get one from me. It's my vice and it is a vice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    But you have to trust some of them. You can't go living life without believing any of these things. As far as medical research goes, the effects of smoking have been known for about fifty years. That reality isn't changing much.
    Besides, just use some common sense. You take a stick full of tarred crap, light it on fire, and inhale the smoke.
    Is it hard to imagine a health risk?
    Yup. Same thing with drinking coke. I still drink the stuff.

    The question is how much is enough? How far do I want to go to protect my own lifespan? To what degree am I willing to give up those things I like to extend my life?
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm not going to say anything about banning them, but I do think drinking alcohol and riding a motorcycle is stupid. I don't' do those things.
    I don't really see how this is so hard.
    There are two different enjoyable things, and one has more benefits and less problems than the other, so you do that one.
    Eh? eh?
    That would be logical but not necessarily preferred.

    Is it not logical to think the way you think? And yet I think differently and consider my way of thinking more logical and better...otherwise I'd change it wouldn't I? See logic only goes so far. Choice is the anomaly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    First of all, a cheeseburger gives you sustenance, a cigarette does not.
    Secondly, The desire to eat one is more understandable, because it was wired in your head from the start. You had to make the mistake of smoking to develop a dependency on smoking.
    Firstly the cigarette is more accessible than the cheeseburger. Secondly you have to be hungry to eat the cheeseburger. Thirdly the cheeseburger is not so easily consumed and creates a mess which has to be cleaned up.

    Oh and before you ask about fag ends I keep mine in my pocket and just put them in the next available bin. I figure that if I can't or won't give up then the least I can do is be considerate. However this is again a choice and not based on logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Cheeseburger every two weeks, probably not as bad as smoking every day.
    Especially if that's a quality burger.
    Eating an McDonald's cheeseburger everyday? Yeah, that is worse than smoking, and what the hell are you doing?!
    I am against that, but I can't think of anyway to ban that.
    When you eat a cheeseburger, it is at least not forcing me to choke on cheeseburger smoke.
    When I smoke it's not forcing anyone. I smoke in my own smoking room or outside away from people who do not smoke unless they chose to come where I am smoking. That is then their choice and I have neither the reason nor the gumption to try to "correct" their choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    For the record, I respond to sam by pointing-out that I do have a bone to pick with the obese. They are hurting they medical system worse than smokers.
    As are those who engage in sports/ recreation where the danger of injury is high. As are those who engage in anything with risks. To take risks is human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Throwing a ball at a wall is completely harmless, and pretty damn cheap. Just because it is enjoyable doesn't put it on the same spectrum as smoking.
    It damages the wall and stresses some people. Stress is a killer. (sorry but devil's advocate mode has been engaged and it's stuck on smartass mode )
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You pro-smoking people are so all-or-nothing.
    Oh I think that ex-smokers and smokers who feel back into a corner (or just argumentative) seem to be the main black and white sections of this argument. All the smokers I know are more than happy to make room for non-smokers and are considerate in their habit. Thinking about it the non-smokers that I know all tend to follow the smokers into the smoking room too despite the fact that it's quite a small room and it can get very foggy if there's several of us there. Again though few complain about opening the window wider so the non-smokers are happier. It's all about compromise. Those that do will find that compromises are often available and those that refuse to compromise will find their opposition becoming more and more stubborn and unmovable. It's that simple most of the time.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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