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  1. #71
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Imperialism would be forced sterilization, not providing an option such as condoms, imo. But I agree with what you've written.

    I just wish there was a better solution. Dragging people to a country, systematically abusing them, and then leaving them to rot seems... well, wrong.

  2. #72
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I'm curious if you think these populations will reach extinction.
    Not extinction. But the total disintegration of their societies and countries, yes, that's a real possibility.

    But they will surely endure famines on an unprecedented scale. And we shall see it happen during our lifetime. It might happen sooner than what we expect.

    In the West, we just behave like if we're not concerned with these time-bombs. And if we ever say anything -even if "our" intentions are good or benevolent-, once again, it is imperialism.
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 01-17-2010 at 03:08 PM.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #73
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    In the West, we just behave like if we're not concerned with these time-bombs. And if we ever say anything -even if "our" intentions are good or benevolent-, once again, it is imperialism.
    Then maybe we should stop treating imperialism like it's a dirty word, perhaps?

    I am still curious on how these populations can continue to reproduce at such an unprecedented rate given the conditions. You've got such stabilizing factors as disease, strife and war, genocide, starvation... and yet they're still quadrupling their population every ten years?!
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #74
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Then maybe we should stop treating imperialism like it's a dirty word, perhaps?

    I am still curious on how these populations can continue to reproduce at such an unprecedented rate given the conditions. You've got such stabilizing factors as disease, strife and war, genocide, starvation... and yet they're still quadrupling their population every ten years?!
    Their population doubles every twenty years.

    For instance, if you take Kenya, you have to figure than one century ago, there were barely 700.000 inhabitants there (1902). Now, they are something close to 38.000.000.

    If we imagine you have no AIDS, no epidemia, or other limiting factors, you might expect to have approximately 165.000.000 Kenyans by 2050, considering their current "natural" growth.

    Half of their country is a desert, and a fourth steppes and savanas. Barely one fourth or one fifth can be cultivated. And the estimated limit of agricultural "sustainability" is 50 million people, which would mean all possible arable lands are cultivated (currently, it's 62% of them). Even in the US, we're far from 100%, because it would be too damaging for the environment.

    ---

    But you have worst scenari. Take for instance Burkina-Faso.
    This country has already trespassed its agricultural limit. So the solution they now have, is to cultivate cotton, to sell it, and then buy rice and maize in return, because it's cheaper this way. It's a desperate measure. The whole population if the country is now dependent on international cotton prices.
    If a trader speculates on it, guess what will happen there... It's a very perverse situation, economically speaking.
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 01-17-2010 at 01:23 PM.
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  5. #75
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Blackmail!;1008845]
    Not completely true.

    Latin America represents something close to 600 million inhabitants, and Argentina's agricultural output is far from that.
    Argentina alone produces food for 450 million, yet millions starve there. Cuba produces barely enough for its population (due to the quality of the land) yet nobody starves. Point being that Latin America can easily feed itself, and the problem is the social system.

    And I fear you can't simplify or explain it though the simplistic vision of Marxist class analysis. Do you think classic Marx lectures could teach Haitians not to make as many children as before?
    Have neo-Malthusian misanthropists in the west acheived it?

    Funny that the countries which went from underdevelopment to low birth rates have mainly been those which industrialized and/or established palnned economies (Eastern Europe and China), suggesting that the solution in economic development, not moralizing from a distance to explain away the brutal poverty of hundreds of millions of people.

    We have only one planet. And its ressources are more limited than what we think they are, especially in developed countries. You cannot instantly transfer ressources from Argentina to Haiti thanks to a kind magic. Everything has a cost, not only in money, but also in energy.
    I should have guessed - patronizing colonialist attitudes towards the peoples of the third world often go hand in hand with misanthropy dressed up as "green"concerns.

    firstly I'm not sure on what basis you're telling me that for the forseeable future food can't be transported around Latin America without some kind of insurmountable environmental destruction. It is already transported from Latin America to the North Atlantic and China especially, which is much further, we would just be talking about a re-ordering of existing energy resources, which would in fact shorten transport distances, not lengthen them.

    However I am not a "localist", (even though on such grounds, it ismore rational to transport food within Lat Am than export it): There is in fact a very efficient and safe form of renewable energy, called nuclear energy. Combined with human ingenuity, technological advance and GM food, there is nothing therefore standing in the way of the industrialization and development of Latin America - except for monopolsitic interests.

    At the end of the day Mathusian explanations of poverty aren't "subversive" or original, they just make an excuse for the inability of the ruling class to raise the living standards of the masses. These aren't constructive and rational solutions which our post-mo "academics" are making, but rather fatalistic apologies for peoples current misery. In no other field of science would such an approach be considered useful, but sadly in the social sciences it is now dominant.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #76
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    is interesting how Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic faired so well. i wonder why...
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  7. #77
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    is interesting how Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic faired so well. i wonder why...
    Enlighten us, Professor Goodstain.



    If the solutions are industrialization or a planned economy, well... for industrialization to work, one would need a stable government. For a planned economy to work, one would also need a stable government.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #78
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Tcda, you're predictable, and a true stalinist if you really think heavy industry can help a country with an already devastated environment. It is so incredibly stupid, you made me laugh for at least two minutes. And nuclear reactors were just the cherry on the cake...
    :yim_rolling_on_the_

    Sometimes, Marxsm is only a way to get out of touch with reality, especially with mundane economic realities. Sociologically, it's something else, though...

    Welcome to Absurdia! :crazy:

    I hope you remember the death toll caused by the Great Leap forward?

    ---

    Furthermore, I'm not a Malthusian, I'm rather a neo-Keynesian (socio-economy and the likes). But I guessed you never noticed the difference, since for you, economic theories have stopped somewhere within the middle of the 19th century?

    You're just a dinosaur. At least, if you genuinely thinks what you wrote. I still keep the possibility you might be an elaborate troll, considering the raw absurdity of your ideas, and the way you strictly implement Marxism to the letter.

    ---

    And no, Argentina cannot produce enough food for 450 million people (productivist delirium tremens?). Considering its current output in cereals, it could barely feed 200 million people at most. But of course, this output could be improved, with less soya crops, less sunflowers, less sheeps and less cows.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  9. #79
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Enlighten us, Professor Goodstain.
    For all the countries around Haiti, one aspect of this issue might be the fact they managed to keep a sustainable environment, and that their birth rate are twice or three times lower than Haiti.


    Plus Puerto Rico benefited vastly from the US, thanks to 1/ massive investments, 2/ access to a large food market, and 3/ the possibility for Puerto-Ricans to freely migrate to the mainland, and thus balancing their excess demography.
    Of course, it meant becoming a client state, and vassalizing your economy almost entirely to your powerful neighbour. Not everything comes freely.

    The same trend works with the French Caribbean islands. It shielded the local population from extreme poverty, but at the price of a somewhat perverse system.

    ---

    Island ecosystems are very fragile. In Haiti you have almost no forest left: 99% of the trees have been chopped down. What once was a lush and verdoyant island has been turned into an arid landscape filled with cacti and spiny bushes -just check satellite pictures of the northern half of Haiti-.

    Only the southern regions are still bathed with frequent rains (and that includes Port au Prince). But then, without most of the trees, what remains of the once flourishing Haitian agriculture has now a severe issue with soil erosion (lessivage).
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  10. #80
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    And nuclear reactors were just the cherry on the cake...
    :yim_rolling_on_the_
    Presumably you're an expert on the issue?

    I hope you remember the death toll caused by the Great Leap forward?
    Yes, what does this have to do with anything?

    Furthermore, I'm not a Malthusian,
    Well your "explanations" of the poverty in Haiti sound very Malthusian I'm afraid.

    I'm rather a neo-Keynesian (socio-economy and the likes). But I guessed you never noticed the difference, since for you, economic theories have stopped somewhere within the middle of the 19th century?
    Whereas for you they stopped in 1973? :s

    I mean really...just because a theory is more recent than another doesn't make it superior.

    Capitalism hasn't transcended the inherent tendencies to crisis caused by over-accumulation/over-production. Has neo-keynesianism saved captialism from itself? All the evidence around me says otherwise...

    As for the idea thta Marxism is dogmatic and doesn't take account of changing conditions...well maybe you should read some Robert Brenner (who predicted this global crisis) or David Harvey (or other less well-known economists), who give a much more serious explanation of the current crisis than any bourgeois commentators I know of.

    You're just a dinosaur.
    This reminds me of Harvey's comment about the apologists of capitalism, and how they have retreated since even feudal intellectuals. St.Francis of Assisi was very concerned to convince non-believers through logic that God must exist. Modern apologists of capitalism simply denounce you as a Marxist heretic and hope that this is in itself will serve to discredit you.

    so yes, I'm used to the denunciations of Marxism as "outdated" by people who want to "humanize capitalism"...a wish which predates Marx by quite some time, and has never been realized. Funny that.

    Post-modernists don't believe in nothing, they believe in anything.

    And no, Argentina cannot produce enough food for 450 million people (productivist delirium tremens?).
    I alamost forgive you for talking to me in French and calling me a productivist - It's not often you get to hear intra-left slurs used on an MBTI forum!

    But, plenty of people disagree with you, including professors on the topic

    http://www.observatorylatinamerica.o...os/130days.pdf
    Nutrici
    El granero y también el supermercado del mundo - TINKU: información alternativa e independiente, América Latina

    In any case the real point was that ain a country whcih produces many more times than enough food for its population, millions go hungry, because 92% is exproted, whereas in a coutnry like Cuba, nobody starves, despite the very poor conditions for producing food. The point being that the issue here is distribution of wealth, not material scarcity in relation to population.

    Likewise I like how you ignored the point that only industrialization and economci development have proved effective at reducing birth rates...you simply called me aStalinsit and walked away.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

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