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  1. #31
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Then you believe $$$=speech?
    No, money is property. Property should be able to be freely exchanged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Unconstitutional my ass. A corporation is not a citizen and money is not speech.
    What's your point? People have a right to assemble and form a corporation. And that corporation has a right to spend its money however the people want to.

    And do you even care about consequences, or do you just support anything that has the word constitutional (correctly or incorrectly) slapped onto it?
    Of course I care about consequences. The Congress sticking its nose into the affairs of people's business has had terrible consequences. I could ask you "do you just support anything that holds down those mean evil corporations?" but I wouldn't ask you that because I don't resort to those kind of stupid tactics.
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  2. #32
    Black Magic Buzzard Kra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Yay! Now we just need the Supreme Court to strike down about a thousand other unconstitutional laws and we're really in business.
    They need to improve their aim a bit...

    And by that, I mean they only seem to find things that control politicians and industry as unconstitutional, rather than the individual.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    No, money is property. Property should be able to be freely exchanged.
    There are plenty of laws that restrict exchange. I can't buy a nuclear bomb. I can't pay for sex. I can't buy drugs. Do you also want those laws struck down?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    There are plenty of laws that restrict exchange. I can't buy a nuclear bomb. I can't pay for sex. I can't buy drugs. Do you also want those laws struck down?
    The last two, yes.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    The last two, yes.
    Actually, I do too, but you're missing the point. Not all exchanges are equal. Some are (believed to be) inordinately harmful to society so we prohibit them.

    Jeffster's argument doesn't work.

    Of all the things that society has prohibited, this is one of the things I actually didn't want overturned.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #36
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    What's your point? People have a right to assemble and form a corporation. And that corporation has a right to spend its money however the people want to:
    There isn't any constitutional authority for the fundamental right to form a corporation, nor is a corporation given the same rights as a natural person under the U.S. Constitution/U.S. Supreme court (as far as I am aware stare decisis and High Court's dicta have said the contrary).

    Edit: After reading this decision, I restate the above because the it appears more and more via stare decisis that humans/citizens have no more 1st amendment/free speech non natural entities (nonhumans/citizens i.e. corporation). And in practice since money is equated to speech impact and dissemination the mass has much less freedoms of speech then just a few of the mega-corporations/extremely rich

    We are supposed to have government by the people for the people. Not of corporations and foreign nations/nationals. The populous representation (person to representative ratio) if a small fragment of what it is not compared to how it was when the U.S. Constitution was first implemented see: Thirty-Thousand.org - Return the House of Representatives to the People (Home Page) (same is true for most State governments "representative democrasies" as well)

    Foreign enemies dont have to attack us with conventional weapons. They just have to legally buy our politicians (cheaper then weapons and military deployment) who thereafter become their puppets. This is essentially taxation without representation again.
    Last edited by Vizconde; 01-24-2010 at 02:59 PM.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Actually, I do too, but you're missing the point. Not all exchanges are equal. Some are (believed to be) inordinately harmful to society so we prohibit them.
    I draw the line at violence or the imminent threat or danger of violence. I do not see how political advertisements cross that line...

  8. #38
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    And that corporation has a right to spend its money however the people want to.
    There are restrictions here, too. Corporations can't bribe government officials (although that goes on anyway). Corporations can't hire hitmen. Corporations can't dump PCBs in your yard (although they've done that too).

    Of course I care about consequences. The Congress sticking its nose into the affairs of people's business has had terrible consequences. I could ask you "do you just support anything that holds down those mean evil corporations?" but I wouldn't ask you that because I don't resort to those kind of stupid tactics.
    Corporations are not "evil". They can't be. They are machines with the sole purpose of generating profit. I believe they have a place in our society, but we have given them far too much power.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #39
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    There are plenty of laws that restrict exchange. I can't buy a nuclear bomb. I can't pay for sex. I can't buy drugs. Do you also want those laws struck down?
    Yes, but the nuclear bomb should come with a warning label.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Actually, I do too, but you're missing the point. Not all exchanges are equal. Some are (believed to be) inordinately harmful to society so we prohibit them.
    I agree with this.

    Jeffster's argument doesn't work.
    Sure it does, because I didn't declare that I was in favor of anarchy. There's a middle ground between no restrictions on anything and Congress trying to control everything. Telling corporations how they can spend their money when it comes to political candidates leans much more to the "control everything" side whereas I lean a lot more in the other direction.

    Every argument that I heard for that McCain-Feingold bill was along the lines of "our regulations of campaigns aren't working so we need MORE of the same kind of regulations and that'll fix it!" Instead of looking at the root of the problems in the system. But nobody wants to really do that, because it would shake up too many people's power base. The problem is not that corporations or even wealthy individuals have too much power, it's that we have consolidated the power so much that they are able to obtain that power.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  10. #40
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    I draw the line at violence or the imminent threat or danger of violence. I do not see how political advertisements cross that line...
    Then you haven't been looking very hard.

    You cannot win a political campaign in the United States of America if you don't have the funds. Corporations have a much larger pool of funds available for political campaigns than most of the population. Therefore, they have the ability to change the outcome of elections due to their ability to finance candidates sympathetic to their agenda.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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