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  1. #41
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think that is a bit extreme in the other direction, honestly.

    One of the main problems I have experienced even with myself is just that the Si-dom's I know in my particular environment have been the more extreme types very entrenched in a traditional view of the world.

    The more I branched out, the more I had to readjust conclusions I had drawn; I realized I was running into Si-doms who were more open than I had anticipated. Usually they were people who were "military kids" or in similar situations, where they were forced to relocate and move around as a kid, and in the process what got ingrained into their sense of "right/wrong" and traditional values were concepts like diversity and openness.

    I think we will continue to see some exciting shifts in how Si-doms have been portrayed in the USA in the past (because for so many years, the culture was very homogenous and entrenched) to the current state of the culture which is far more diverse and open... diversity and openness will naturally become absorbed by Si-doms as "the way things should be."

    There is still a sizable chunk of Si-doms out there, though, who are products of that older entrenched generation and do not flex to the current state of the culture, and they're going to be around for another twenty years or so... although currently diminishing.
    The problem is with Si always being associated with conservative. To tie this into the thread subject, everyone knows how California ruled on gay marriage, and Californians are generally NOT conservative. That is just an example.

  2. #42
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    The problem is with Si always being associated with conservative. To tie this into the thread subject, everyone knows how California ruled on gay marriage, and Californians are generally NOT conservative. That is just an example.
    I think that's a rather broad assumption on Californians.
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  3. #43
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    The problem is with Si always being associated with conservative. To tie this into the thread subject, everyone knows how California ruled on gay marriage, and Californians are generally NOT conservative. That is just an example.
    Well, the issue there, from what I had read back in that election, is that:

    (1) A lot of the Prop 8 people seemed to be the more conservative influx of mexicans and the churches who were threatened that "if they didn't vote Prop 8, the government would force them to marry homosexuals in their own church!" (and assorted other tactics of fear)

    and

    (2) the very conservative/traditional Mormon church based in Utah poured a CRAPLOAD of money into CA -- millions of dollars -- to pass Prop 8.

    So again, it actually WAS the conservative forces -- typically the Si-doms -- who pushed Prop 8 to success. Those external influences had been unexpected, which is why no one reacted to the threat of Prop 8 passing earlier; if they had anticipated the outsider involvement, then Prop 8 might not have passed because they would have fought earlier. The state actually is more liberal, except for the influx of people from Mexico, etc., and external politics investing in that election.

    I agree with your main point, though, which is that Si-doms are getting a bad rap and actually have more variance and openness based on the culture that established what views were "traditional." If "traditional" is open and more flexy, then that is what is seen as "normal."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #44
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    If this is all about children, then we shouldn't allow infertile couples to marry, either.

    I mean... there will always be homosexual couples and infertile couples and children who are unwanted by their biological parents. The solution, to me, at least seems kind of obvious.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  5. #45
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It makes it all a real can of worms to sift through, doesn't it? I'm not sure how to keep it from getting heated, because we're dealing with someone's sense of self coupled with social judgment... it's touchy.
    That's one reason why I usually hate discussing the issue, it's literally impossible to have a level-headed discussion on the topic it seems. Add onto the fact that I really don't care that much about it in the first place. The only reasons I get involved is because either people ask me, or basically I see that not enough is actually being dealt with in certain discussions and my sense of duty kicks in. IMO, discussions about gay marriage are largely distractions from larger issues effecting the world.


    But anyway, I appreciate you going out on a limb and presenting the more traditional conservative case for public scrutiny.
    Well I know you'll listen to what I have to say, so I don't mind.

  6. #46
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    How do you explain this then?

    Same-sex Marriage in the United States


  7. #47

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    I really liked this guy's take on it. I think I may be going from undecided on this issue to pro-gay marriage.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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  8. #48
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sLiPpY View Post
    I don't think that Governments should be in the business of "marrying" people. I believe that anyone with six toes, four penis's and two vagina's should be able to form a legal contract with any single celled organ even if it is absent of sex organs if it so chooses.

    If there are religious traditions, people should be able to honor and practice those freely.

    If there isn't a religious tradition, people should feel free to make one of their own up...just like the other group did.

    Otherwise, under the law the living and social arrangement should be treated as a legal contract. A "business" partnership so that people can participate on a legal basis as partners in society and reap the benefits other "parterships" are granted under the law.

    That's all a government should do, issue a legal "partnership" license.

    The context of that relationship should be societally determined by the groups and institutions the legal partners choose to participate in.
    This. It's not going to be easy to do, though, because some people will consider it an attack on traditional marriage/family.

    IMO, the purpose of law is to serve the needs of the people, not the other way around. Nowadays, a lot of people don't get married or get married later. Grown children live with their parents longer, people have roommates beyond college, etc. Legally, it's a mess and leaves a lot of people out in the cold.

    I think for tax, benefit, insurance, etc purposes, it would be better to set up some kind of criteria independent of marriage/biology for defining 'family.'

    Civil unions are a good start.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  9. #49
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    So we're no longer discussing Si doms and how they think, Giggly?

    Or are you just saying all the country agrees with you [based on a two-color map, which we already know presents erroneous pictures of political data as per the red/blue repub/democ map from the 2004 election, which should really be PURPLE in most places], so it's not really indicative of Si values in this country to be opposed to gay marriage?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #50
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So we're no longer discussing Si doms and how they think, Giggly?

    Or are you just saying all the country agrees with you [based on a two-color map, which we already know presents erroneous pictures of political data as per the red/blue repub/democ map from the 2004 election, which should really be PURPLE in most places], so it's not really indicative of Si values in this country to be opposed to gay marriage?
    No, I'd really like to discuss Si doms being misunderstood. I just did't want you to ban me for get off topic.

    Or are you just saying all the country agrees with you [based on a two-color map, which we already know presents erroneous pictures of political data as per the red/blue repub/democ map from the 2004 election, which should really be PURPLE in most places], so it's not really indicative of Si values in this country to be opposed to gay marriage?
    There's something about it, Jennifer. I listen to what people are saying (the people who speak up the loudest, what the media says, etc) and if we're judging by that, gay marriage should be legal in most states. It really should, but it is not. Why? I'm questioning, not making a statement. Something is amiss.

    One possibility - there may be things that are not being said. Maybe some people are cowards and won't speak their views because it's a headache. I dunno.

    I do feel for gays and lesbians who want to get married but can't. That must make them feel like second-class citizens. My sister who I am the closest to is a married lesbian.

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