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  1. #71
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Do you think the US shouldn't have intervened during the WWII, and just "allow evolution to run it's course in Europe and Asia?"
    Why not, the US only intervened because it is in bed with Israel anyways! Look where that has brought to.
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  2. #72
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prototype View Post
    Why not, the US only intervened because it is in bed with Israel anyways! Look where that has brought to.
    So far you were fun... But now, a little bit less.

    Why did you mention Israel? Do you really think there's a link beween the Israelis and the US intervention in Afghanistan?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #73
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    And if you want to talk about harbouring terror what about Saudi Arabia? So clearly, this was not the reason.
    The Saudi Arabian government harbors activist advocates of an ideology that leads to jihadist terrorism, but does not provide sanctuary for any actual perpetrators of jihadist terrorism upon the soil of NATO countries, nor does it sponsor terrorist training camps.

    The United States and its NATO allies couldn't care less about Afghanistan before 9/11, so "clearly," that IS the reason for the invasion.

    And not that it matters in terms of our motivations for being there, but any regime that does not allow women to be educated is "clearly" more misogynistic than the current regime.

  4. #74
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prototype View Post
    Why not, the US only intervened because it is in bed with Israel anyways! Look where that has brought to.
    Perhaps you are unaware, but Israel didn't even exist during WWII.

  5. #75
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthawk View Post
    In my life experience ... sadly ... human life is pretty cheap. It becomes cheaper the farther you go up the heirarchy.

    Captain: Lieutenant, take your platoon, cross this minefield, and attack the machine gun emplacements up on that hill.
    That is unfortunate, but access to information does have a countering influence. That Captain would be less likely to issue the same command if he were doing it for the world to see.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #76
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Perhaps you are unaware, but Israel didn't even exist during WWII.
    Pssst: Let's hear what he has to say... I'm curious to see how far this will lead us.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #77
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    So far you were fun... But now, a little bit less.

    Why did you mention Israel?
    Why did you mention WwII?... Do you really need to ask that question?...
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  8. #78
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Intervention as in "invasion"?

    Do you seriously think this was about a bunch of shit kickers getting friendly with Mother Russia?

    Not as relevant as you may think. Poor foresight by one US administration shouldn't necessitate a hands off policy by one that proceeds it
    It's clear what it was about; the US was prepared to subject Afghanistan to a brutal fundamentalist dictatorship at the expense of a modernizing, secular, economic regime, in order to strike a blow at the Soviet Union. The architects of the plan have admitted as much.

    Regarding whether it's "relevant" - I'm not sure what you're trying to argue for. It's relevant from the point of view of those of us who want to show to those who misguidedly place their hopes in the US as some sort of "modernizing", "democratic" or "liberal" force, that it's nothing of the sort, and that it's dominion over Afghanistan can only bring poverty, oppression and barbarism. It's relevant fromt he point of view that this burning hatred of the US empire has the potential to forge together nations in a struggle to expel the invader and create a revolutionary situation, whereby the backwards role of the "national bourgeoisie" and the feudal landlords is exposed, as in Algeria during the resistance to the French, for example.

    I'm not sure what point you wanted to make - maybe the history of Afghanistan is irrelevant to your particualr Afganistan related point.

    Again, you present a simplified view of reality. Not that I disagree with you - just making the point that if one country supplies 90% of the heroin to another, saying "just don't buy it" is feably simplistic and quite laughable.
    That wasn't "all" I said though was it - maybe read my post again?

    Still though, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. You tell me "Not that I disagree with you", and then...proceed to disagree with me. So are you trying to convince me to support the war effort? Or to renoucne my support for the resistance? Or what?

    If you're simpyl trying to say that "the US had its reasons for invading afghanistan", yes, I knew that. I don't think ruling classes are stupid or act arbitrarily, otherwise they wouldn't still be in power. My point is simply that none of us, inside or outside the US, or even less in the countries they are invading, have ay reason a.) to believe their self-justifiction or b.) to support them. If you disagree just say so.

    Correct. It was only an example.

    The reason given, principally, was to prevent AQ in it's activities. It's seriously debatable if that can be achieved.
    Especially given that
    a.) Al Qaeda doesn't exist and is just a CIA name given to different orgaizations and cells
    b.) Islamic terorrism is closely tied to regimes like the Saudi which the US heavily funds (though much of the aid doesn't show up as miltiary "aid" because it's passed off as arms sales, even though these are essentially subsidized and are indeed aid), and
    c.)that the US fuels terrorism through its actions and so every invasion will jst create more (which is no worry to the US ruling class as this bogeyman has proved very useful).

    Which begs the question: what is an Afghan?
    Well all nationalities are constructed through a historic process. Afghanistan has had a common economic, political and military life thrust upon it (at least at a superstructural level) and within more or elss stable borders has been subjected to a series of invasions over centuries.

    We could get into all sorts of historic windbagging about whether nationhood is possible without a naitonal borugeosiie as a dominant class relegating feudal chiefs to a subordinate role etc. etc. etc., but windbagging isn't much use to anyone (except patronising post-modernist "flabby academics" - to use a favourite Lenin quote of mine - who use it as a convenient way to get out of intervening in reality at all)

    So windbagging flabby academics aside, what is really important, the crux of the issue you may say, is that the people who have been targetted for invasion, colonization and rape by the Pentagon, regardless of whether they cosnider themselves Afghans, are being subjected to those horrors, and have been for centuries, precisely because they inhabit that part of the world which those oh so foolish "simplifiers" like myself call "Afghanistan".

    The point being therefore that despite the occupiers attempts to "divide and rule", the subjected peoples have a higher interest in unity against the invader, placing the resources of the nation (which as I say, can be constructed through struggle, something which seeing as it is being attacked as a whole, would be very rational to do) under the collective control of those who live there, for their benefit, and not the benefit of foreign empires or their treacherous warlord agents*

    *Contrary to the post-modernist view of "Blackmail!", I certainly think there is no serious argument to say that these are simply "players in a complex game", and that in fact it's blindingly obvious that they have a metropolis-periphery relationship, with one as the empire and the other as the local agent.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prototype View Post
    Why did you mention WwII?... Do you really need to ask that question?...
    HE was trying to prove a point. And he did have a point. You mentioning Israel did not prove a point.

    And Israel didn't exist during the 1940s.

  10. #80
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Nighthawk;1003033]
    You make a valid point there. I did volunteer to join the Army, so by extension I agreed to go where they sent me. Still, it was difficult for me to follow orders sometimes, because I did not agree with them. Probably the INTP in me. I certainly did not agree with everything I was told to do ... and I know a lot of others who also did not. Some chose to do something about it, other's went with the flow. My refusal to follow what I thought were questionable orders eventually cost me my career. Not a big loss, in retrospect.
    I can see how this issue of interest to you then. I didn't start the thread in order to talk about specific soldiers morality - I have no sympathy for anyone who executes innocent civilians and I hope they get what's coming to them, but at the end of the day this isn't about individual soldiers, but those who directed the war. It's not my place to make moral judgements on individuals I'm just using individual actions in order to open up the question of the war itself.



    Once again ... a good point. Do the Afghans even have the logistics to produce uniforms or insignia with which to identify themselves? Doubtful. What does the law of land warfare say in response to that? Unfortunately, the only choice they have is total war, using whatever means they can muster to overcome their enemy. What is also unfortunate, is that this leads the enemy (in this case the coalition) to resort to total war as well in some cases ... even though it is forbidden to them. This is is one of the reasons that causes innocents to lose lives. Other reasons can be arrogance and mistakes. I've seen the latter two, but was fortunate enough not to be involved in a total war.
    This is true, but in the long run, is there any other way they could defeat the invader?


    I believe I can understand how you feel about the issue. For what it's worth, I wish we were not over there either. The true test for me was if I would want my son to go fight over there. The answer is no. I think a lot of the soldiers do wake up after their contact with war. I still support them because it is part of what I was and am ... even if I don't support the war itself
    My answer would be, if you support them, you should want them home, and not in Afghanistan...because no soldier will be getting the military contracts, the pipeline rights or the poltiical profit from this, they'll jsut get traumatized, maimed and killed.

    I don't call them "hero's", I refuse to, but neither do I hate them personally, I think most are honest working folk like myself who just thought the army was way out or they were doing a good thing...but the best thing we can do for them then is to campaign for them to come home, and tell them the truth about why they are there so that future generations of Afghans and westerners won't have to go through this again.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

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