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  1. #61
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    No I don't mean the Soviets. Afghanistan in the 1970's had a series of pro-Soviet governments who the USA was funding terror against. This was the reason for the Soviet intervention.
    Intervention as in "invasion"?

    Do you seriously think this was about a bunch of shit kickers getting friendly with Mother Russia?

    Becuase it shows the Taliban were essentially put in power by the US.
    Not as relevant as you may think. Poor foresight by one US administration shouldn't necessitate a hands off policy by one that proceeds it.

    Or Americans could jsut stop buying heroin.
    Again, you present a simplified view of reality. Not that I disagree with you - just making the point that if one country supplies 90% of the heroin to another, saying "just don't buy it" is feably simplistic and quite laughable.

    Though in any case this was never the stated reason for the war.
    Correct. It was only an example.

    The reason given, principally, was to prevent AQ in it's activities. It's seriously debatable if that can be achieved.

    Well many brave Afghan resistance fighters refuse to accept "the way it is", and have thrown a spanner in the works.
    Many of the indiginous combatants are co-opted or under great social pressure to participate. And they are Pashtuns; your average Tajik, for example, won't be doing much shooting.

    Which begs the question: what is an Afghan?

    Have a Freedom Fry.

  2. #62
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Well maybe after Osama hears this story he will turn himself in and to top it off bring in Iraqs weapons of mass distruction with him. Glad we are not getting sidetracked and taking care of the direct cause of 9/11. Shucks it hasn't even been 10 years. Our tax dollars at work.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  3. #63
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    History of Diplomacy - e Diplomat

    Suggest you learn your stuff before spouting crap.
    "Spouting crap"?... Lol... I wonder if your attitude would have been different if I started spouting crap about democracy instead!... Oh, wait,...I forgot, western democracy is a privilege, not a right... Right?
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  4. #64
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    I think what Bananatrombones is trying to explain you, is that Afghanistan is a tribal entity rather than a real nation of some sort (it was solely created as a tampon zone between two empires during the Victorian era). It is perhaps an anachronism, but it worked so far that way, and this system won't cease overnight.

    And this explains why the Tajik won't side with the Pashtuns, who won't side with the Azaras, who won't side with the Uzbeks, who in turn might ally -sometimes- with the Turkmens.
    Each area has its own "laws", its own system, its own language, its own traditions, its own culture, its own warlords, and even its own religion. Because it's not only a conflict based on ethnicity and tribes, there's also tremendous differences between the Islam of the Talibans (hanbalite; deeply influenced by Saudi Arabia) and the Islam of Ahmad Shah Massoud (enlightened Hanafi -northern Turkic school-), just in case you haven't noticed -and there are Shias too-.

    Well, it's complex, and it's a game played by dozens of conflicting interests, the Western World being only one amongst many others. And there's no simple solution: giving power to the overcorrupt Hamid Karzai is a real shame, but then, had we any other solution, considering the fact he's a representative from the ethnic majority, the Pashtuns?
    "We" could have allied more openly with the Tajiks and the Azaras, who did really welcome the US intervention and preach more enlighted values too, but then, if "we" would have favored them too much, the conflict could have quickly escalated into an ethnic war that could have paradoxically reinforced the power of the Talibans.

    Complexity.

    This is why I fear there shall be no "good" or honorable answer, whatever the kind of game the West decide to play.

    That was my two pence.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #65
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it. If Islam wants to destroy itself, then let it happen, that's their right.

    Stop supporting the outrageous meddling, and allow evolution to run it's course for fuck sakes!
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  6. #66
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prototype View Post
    That's bullshit!... No one deserves to be shot at, or blown up.
    What a compelling argument!

    EDIT: There are better alternatives to killing everyone, people are just too lazy to do anything about it.
    Let me introduce you to the concept of risk vs reward. Some might call it a cost/benefit analysis. Moral absolutists do have trouble with these concepts, since they put a price on a human life, but they are reality whether you like it or not.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #67
    Senior Member Nighthawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Let me introduce you to the concept of risk vs reward. Some might call it a cost/benefit analysis. Moral absolutists do have trouble with these concepts, since they put a price on a human life, but they are reality whether you like it or not.
    In my life experience ... sadly ... human life is pretty cheap. It becomes cheaper the farther you go up the heirarchy.

    Captain: Lieutenant, take your platoon, cross this minefield, and attack the machine gun emplacements up on that hill.

  8. #68
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prototype View Post
    You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it. If Islam wants to destroy itself, then let it happen, that's their right.

    Stop supporting the outrageous meddling, and allow evolution to run it's course for fuck sakes!
    1/ Do you think the US shouldn't have intervened during the WWII, and just "allow evolution to run it's course in Europe and Asia?"

    2/ Once again, what we are desperatly trying to explain you, is that there's not a "single" unified Islam. Islam is not destroying itself, it's rather Islamists who are trying to destroy moderates, or anybody in their way (the West and other Muslims as well).
    Islamism (here: AQ, Talibans, Hamas, Muslim brothers... etc...) is a specific ideology, a specific case, and a very recent one since it is totalitarian in nature -All the texts of Hannah Arendt apply very well to it-.
    But whatever you think of the different existing Islamic faiths (1), you should not confuse them with Islamism, even if its real threat should not be underestimated (totalitarian ideologies are popular and seductive in their essence).
    The fact is you cannot envision a real peace with a totalitarian ideology. Ideologies do not behave like states: such diplomacy would necessarily fail.

    Once again, the real world is complex. And simplistic solutions should always be looked with suspicion.

    ---

    (1) For instance, for the Ahmadiyyas, holding a weapon is generally forbidden. They are strict pacifists.
    And for the Alevis, work is more important than prayers, or what you really believe (and thus according to them, a "good" pagan will deserve paradise more than a lazy muslim). For them, religion should only be shown in private, hence they usually are staunch proponents of Kemalism (in Turkey).
    And so on, and so on...

    There are dozens of variants of Islam, just as there are dozens of variants of Christianism. I would even say that the sheer diversity of expressed values within Islam is even wider than within the Christian world.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  9. #69
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What a compelling argument!
    An argument, nonetheless. Whether you find it compelling or not doesn't change the fact that it is still murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Let me introduce you to the concept of risk vs reward. Some might call it a cost/benefit analysis. Moral absolutists do have trouble with these concepts, since they put a price on a human life, but they are reality whether you like it or not.
    Reality?... Are you OK with your version of reality?

    The truth of it is that these people die, so you can feel safe in what is established as your national sense of reality...
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  10. #70
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Them crazy Islamic savages. Cant you hear those relentless drums. Make them drums stop! If we go over to their countries and kill them they will be more civilized and revert to the true religion Christianity and of course the perfect form of government: democracy. In other words if we stop going over there, then they might come here and be upset about us blowing up their villages and executing their children. If those savages just did what they were told it would be soooo much easier.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

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