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  1. #51
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Wrong. Afghanistan was and still is a narco state. We are still taking about Afghanistan?

    The tribal nature of the place, warlordism, lack of a functioning government and hotch-potch of ethnic groups would suggest it is far from being a "country", as we would regard a nation state.

    Ergo solving problems through politics was never an option in the first place. Unless you count our friends in Pakistan.
    What did the US government do last time there was a secular, relatively enligthened economic nationalist regime trying to build some kind of modern nation state in Afghanistan? a.)give it all the aid possible or b.)destabilize it through funding, trainign and arming Bin Laden's Mujahideens.

    Now let's stay true to the question please: I am not asking if bourgeois nationalism was viable in Afghanistan in the 1970's, whether it would be realistic to expect the US to be the "good guys" (it's not and I wouldn't ask them to be, to ask the US empire to fight underdevelopment would be like asking the devil for help fighting the horns and the tail of the devil).

    My question is just to illustrate that the US has no interest in "developing" Afghanistan, it just wants to make sure its own feudal warlords hold the balance of power.

    In which case, why should the Afghans, or us outside of the US, or US citizens, be "understanding" of such a mission? You're right that the way they went about it (invasion) was probably the only effective way - but surely this only underlines the fact that the goals themselves were unjustifiable?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  2. #52
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    There's choices and there's choices.

    I wouldn't judge someone else's too much if I were you.
    I'm not judging in this particular case. Though I find it funny how so often fairly right-wing folk become all "non-judgemental" and bleeding heart liberal when we're talking about soldiers. They often point to lack of other options - but where were they when the jobs and welfare budgets were being slashed in the first place?

    Don't get me wrong I'm not saying this is you, it's jsut a tendency I have noticed.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  3. #53
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthawk View Post
    You ask some difficult questions that can use answers ... or at least attempts at answers. Good dialog.
    I get that a lot.
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  4. #54
    Senior Member Nighthawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Nothing asgainst you as you seem like an ok person but were you conscripted or did you join the army out of choice? The reason I'm saying they "choose to be there" is because it's a professional not a conscript army. I've got plenty of friends and family who have been conscripted in their country and this is a very different case from someone who signs up to it as a career.
    You make a valid point there. I did volunteer to join the Army, so by extension I agreed to go where they sent me. Still, it was difficult for me to follow orders sometimes, because I did not agree with them. Probably the INTP in me. I certainly did not agree with everything I was told to do ... and I know a lot of others who also did not. Some chose to do something about it, other's went with the flow. My refusal to follow what I thought were questionable orders eventually cost me my career. Not a big loss, in retrospect.

    Regarding the laws of land combat - but the Afghan people are fighting for their sovereignity as a nation, using their meagre resources to take on the world's superpower. They didn't ask for this war, they were invaded. Are we going to ask them to "identify" themselves just to make it easier to occupy and dominate them?
    Once again ... a good point. Do the Afghans even have the logistics to produce uniforms or insignia with which to identify themselves? Doubtful. What does the law of land warfare say in response to that? Unfortunately, the only choice they have is total war, using whatever means they can muster to overcome their enemy. What is also unfortunate, is that this leads the enemy (in this case the coalition) to resort to total war as well in some cases ... even though it is forbidden to them. This is is one of the reasons that causes innocents to lose lives. Other reasons can be arrogance and mistakes. I've seen the latter two, but was fortunate enough not to be involved in a total war.

    Like I say I'm not happy to see a single US soldier killed, but as long as they are on someone else's land then I stand by the Afghan people's right to do so. Anyone who cares about them should campaign for their immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan, and the soldiers themselves need to wake up to what they are being used for, as soldiers like Joe Glenton in the UK have.
    I believe I can understand how you feel about the issue. For what it's worth, I wish we were not over there either. The true test for me was if I would want my son to go fight over there. The answer is no. I think a lot of the soldiers do wake up after their contact with war. I still support them because it is part of what I was and am ... even if I don't support the war itself.

  5. #55
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    What did the US government do last time there was a secular, relatively enligthened economic nationalist regime trying to build some kind of modern nation state in Afghanistan? a.)give it all the aid possible or b.)destabilize it through funding, trainign and arming Bin Laden's Mujahideens.
    You mean the Soviets. Well, secular is one word to describe them.

    Why would this be relevant to the virtuousness or otherwise of this conflict?

    My question is just to illustrate that the US has no interest in "developing" Afghanistan, it just wants to make sure its own feudal warlords hold the balance of power.
    If opiates from the region are reaching the streets of USA, of course it has an interest.

    In which case, why should the Afghans, or us outside of the US, or US citizens, be "understanding" of such a mission? You're right that the way they went about it (invasion) was probably the only effective way - but surely this only underlines the fact that the goals themselves were unjustifiable?
    Well it's useful to have friends, but not critical. Depends the way the balancing act plays out. Besides, if you're not with 'em your against 'em and you may find your country out of favour with a little economic incentivisation.

    That's the way it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prototype View Post
    So in other words, a 300 year old political concept that was conjured up by British loyalists...
    "In other words"... Dream on, baby. But nice try, kiddo.

    Modern diplomacy dates back at least 700 years. It's useful in stopping wars - that sort of thing.

    Although to be fair the Taliban had a "government" of sorts, which covered Pashtun areas only. In one instance they executed a some Iranian diplomats, amongst other diplomatic faux pas.

  6. #56
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post

    "In other words"... Dream on, baby. But nice try, kiddo.

    Modern diplomacy dates back at least 700 years. It's useful in stopping wars - that sort of thing.
    Where did diplomacy originate from?
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  7. #57
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Nighthawk - thaks for the thoughtful reply, I will reply when I have time to do so properly.

    [QUOTE]
    You mean the Soviets. Well, secular is one word to describe them.
    No I don't mean the Soviets. Afghanistan in the 1970's had a series of secular, modernizing pro-Soviet governments based on the liberal urban middle class and the tiny proletariat; governments who the USA was funding terror against. This was the reason for the Soviet intervention.

    Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Why would this be relevant to the virtuousness or otherwise of this conflict?
    Becuase it shows the Taliban were essentially put in power by the US.

    If opiates from the region are reaching the streets of USA, of course it has an interest.
    Or Americans could jsut stop buying heroin. I don't see why millions of Afghans should be maimed killed and imprisoned in order to combat the social decay caused by Reaganomics and an inhuman economic system - or in fact how this could ever be effective, as I'm led to believe that opium exports from Afghanistan have boomed since the invasion (though I could have been misinformed on that).

    Though in any case this was never the stated reason for the war.

    Well it's useful to have friends, but not critical. Depends the way the balancing act plays out. Besides, if you're not with 'em your against 'em and you may find your country out of favour with a little economic incentivisation.

    That's the way it is.
    Well many brave Afghan resistance fighters refuse to accept "the way it is", and have thrown a spanner in the works. Perhaps history is not predetermined after all? All empires fall, and they do so because of the subjective decision to fight them by those they oppress. why should this one be any different?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  8. #58
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prototype View Post
    Where did diplomacy originate from?
    History of Diplomacy - e Diplomat

    Suggest you learn your stuff before spouting crap.

  9. #59
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Once in power, the PDPA moved to permit freedom of religion and carried out an ambitious land reform, waiving farmers' debts countrywide. They also made a number of statements on women’s rights and introduced women to political life. A prominent example was Anahita Ratebzad, who was a major Marxist leader and a member of the Revolutionary Council. Ratebzad wrote the famous May 28, 1978 New Kabul Times editorial which declared: “Privileges which women, by right, must have are equal education, job security, health services, and free time to rear a healthy generation for building the future of the country ... Educating and enlightening women is now the subject of close government attention.”[60]

    Many people in the cities including Kabul either welcomed or were ambivalent to these policies. However, the secular nature of the government made it unpopular with religiously conservative Afghans in the villages and the countryside, who favoured traditionalist 'Islamic' law.

    The U.S. saw the situation as a prime opportunity to weaken the Soviet Union. As part of a Cold War strategy, in 1979 the United States government (under President Jimmy Carter) began to covertly fund forces ranged against the pro-Soviet government, although warned that this might prompt a Soviet intervention, according to President Carter's National Security Advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski. Brzezinski described the U.S. activities as the successful setting of a trap that drew the Soviet Union into "its Vietnam War" and brought about the breakup of the Soviet empire. Regarding U.S. support for Islamic fundamentalism, Brzezinski said, "What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?"[61] The Mujahideen belonged to various different factions, but all shared, to varying degrees, a similarly conservative 'Islamic' ideology.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #60
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    CRG -- The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan

    Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

    Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

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