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  1. #31
    Senior Member Nighthawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prototype View Post
    Can you define what is considered as execution, when comparing it to "warfare"?...
    Well ... going out on a limb here as I don't have an official definition ... but I can tell what I understood it to be during my time in uniform. Execution would be killing the opponent after they have already surrendered or are defenseless and no longer pose a threat to you.

  2. #32
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthawk View Post
    Well ... going out on a limb here as I don't have an official definition ... but I can tell what I understood it to be during my time in uniform. Execution would be killing the opponent after they have already surrendered or are defenseless and no longer pose a threat to you.
    Soo,.. The "defenseless civilians" that die from the U.S. bombings on the Taliban militants are executed?... That's not very ethical, now is it?
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  3. #33
    Senior Member Nighthawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prototype View Post
    Soo,.. The "defenseless civilians" that die from the U.S. bombings on the Taliban militants are executed?... That's not very ethical, now is it?
    No, I feel it is is not. The ethics of indiscriminate bombing have been called into question many times all the way back to Dresden. I'm definitely not a proponent of it. In giving you my example, it is colored by my experience. I was a foot soldier ... so it was usually up close and personal. There was no bombing from afar in my world.

  4. #34
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthawk View Post
    No, I feel it is is not. The ethics of indiscriminate bombing have been called into question many times all the way back to Dresden. I'm definitely not a proponent of it.
    I understand,... The soldiers are only following orders,... Ones which contradict human morals.
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  5. #35
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Is this thread a discussion or an agenda?

  6. #36
    Senior Member Nighthawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prototype View Post
    I understand,... The soldiers are only following orders,... Ones which contradict human morals.
    You are at the crux of a very critical issue here. Where do morality and following orders overlap? Personally, I was sickened by all of war and I don't feel that it is possible to conduct a moral war ... although I used to believe that it was. My actions during the war in which I fought led me to believe that I chose my career or not being imprisoned (for refusing to fight) over the lives of those who were deemed my enemy. Is that moral? The consequences of me refusing to kill them would have been an ended career or jail. Not exactly a moral tradeoff for human life, and not one I'm proud of either. Hindsight is 20-20, but I wish I'd known that back before I put on the uniform. It is something I still struggle with today.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prototype View Post
    I understand,... The soldiers are only following orders,... Ones which contradict human morals.
    There are no moral absolutes.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #38
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    Considering that Afganistan and Iraq are a collosal waste of time and resources, I propose one of three solutions.

    1. Maintain the current policy which will continue to economically destabilize the US, similar to the fate the USSR suffered after overspending in Afganistan for ten years.
    2. Wise up and withdrawl.
    3. Nuke em!

  9. #39
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthawk View Post
    You are at the crux of a very critical issue here. Where do morality and following orders overlap? Personally, I was sickened by all of war and I don't feel that it is possible to conduct a moral war ... although I used to believe that it was. My actions during the war in which I fought led me to believe that I chose my career or not being imprisoned (for refusing to fight) over the lives of those who were deemed my enemy. Is that moral? The consequences of me refusing to kill them would have been an ended career or jail. Not exactly a moral tradeoff for human life, and not one I'm proud of either. Hindsight is 20-20, but I wish I'd known that back before I put on the uniform. It is something I still struggle with today.
    Which war did you serve in?

    Were they your personal enemy, or your governments?

    I believe that all nations deserve the right to protect themselves with a military type force, which should only be used within the country for national protection from civil unrest. Invasion is terrorism.
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  10. #40
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthawk View Post
    As a professional soldier, I never chose to go anywhere. I went where I was ordered to go. Most of the time, I never wanted to be there in the first place (noteable exception was Germany). We also had very strict rules of warfare that forbid the shooting of unarmed civilians ... even unarmed enemy soldiers. During my time in service, we adhered to those rules.

    Where the line is blurred however, is when civilians take up arms and then blend back into the shadows when confronted by the soldiers. Sometimes they use their civilian status to hide after a strike against their enemy. This leads to a total warfare in which civilians are no longer safe. According to the law of land warfare, it is unlawful for belligerents to engage in combat without meeting certain requirements, among them the wearing of a distinctive uniform or other distinctive signs visible at a distance, and the carrying of weapons openly.

    Did this happen in this instance in Afghanistan? I'm not sure. Hard to tell. What concerns me is the report of handcuffs on some of the killed individuals. If true, that sounds like execution, not warfare.
    Nothing asgainst you as you seem like an ok person but were you conscripted or did you join the army out of choice? The reason I'm saying they "choose to be there" is because it's a professional not a conscript army. I've got plenty of friends and family who have been conscripted in their country and this is a very different case from someone who signs up to it as a career.

    Regarding the laws of land combat - but the Afghan people are fighting for their sovereignity as a nation, using their meagre resources to take on the world's superpower. They didn't ask for this war, they were invaded. Are we going to ask them to "identify" themselves just to make it easier to occupy and dominate them?

    Like I say I'm not happy to see a single US soldier killed, but as long as they are on someone else's land then I stand by the Afghan people's right to do so. Anyone who cares about them should campaign for their immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan, and the soldiers themselves need to wake up to what they are being used for, as soldiers like Joe Glenton in the UK have.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

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