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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I noticed your location...as you must know it wasn't long ago the British army used to do these things to mine and your grandparents? And they used to spread the same bullshit lies about "national security" too.

    Why should the Afghans deserve any less support than most of us today would agree the Irish desreved back then...?
    Yeah, during the Russian civil war the Tsarists sent junior army cadets armed with school rifles into battle against troops retreating from the front and bolshevik soldiers, it was because they were fantatics and thought their world was ending, I could readily believe this about some of the schools in Afgahanistan.

    The terrible thing is that I could imagine that about some of the radical schools in the UK.

    Having grown up in NI and experienced first hand the stuff that interests people in further fields I can appreciate how complicated these things become, the british army role in NI has been a complicated one, there has been a sectarian war here and that's been, for people living here, the bigger issue.

    If you read any of the good early accounts of the troubles, like From Civil Rights To Armalites, you'll know that there was a popular, mainly left wing, struggle which became mired in a republican rennaisance, the traditional form of resistance won out and it more than 25yrs for republicans to realise that the very traditionalism of it meant that it had become vital to the union with Britain and the unionist status quo.

    Its very different from Afghanistan and the comparison is off base, however, in my experience in NI there are sectarian elements who would and did and still do USE young people, as young as twelve years old, as assets in their campaigns. The kids are glad to play their part, lends meaning to their lives at that stage at which their identity is just emerging and they want to live a large and history making heroic life.

  2. #22
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I don't doubt this.

    If anyone wants my perspective, it's that no foreign troops have any business being in Afghanistan, and that the Afghan people have every right to defend their country.
    :rolli:

    Allow me to interrupt your delusion with a little article...

    Poll: 7 in 10 Afghans support US forces - Yahoo! News

    Furthermore, I consider the fact that the "guerrillas" in question (deliberately bombing school children and throwing acid on women who dare to step outside the house does not exactly constitute "guerrilla warfare") harbored jihadist terrorist to be a sufficient basis for our troops having "business" in any territorial entity in which the former control or (with the permission of local allies) threaten.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I dont get the lack of support for the armed forces that exists in the West most of the global interventions that are on going at the moment are police actions in lawless regions were the only power brokers are jihadists who'd make the sorts of conservatives that liberals or "anti-imperialists" revile look like out and out permissive commies.

  4. #24
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    :rolli:

    Allow me to interrupt your delusion with a little article...

    Poll: 7 in 10 Afghans support US forces - Yahoo! News

    Furthermore, I consider the fact that the "guerrillas" in question (deliberately bombing school children and throwing acid on women who dare to step outside the house does not exactly constitute "guerrilla warfare") harbored jihadist terrorist to be a sufficient basis for our troops having "business" in any territorial entity in which the former control or (with the permission of local allies) threaten.
    Sorry, they weren't harbouring "terror" until the CIA sent the terrorists there to destroy their country in the 1970's! Those "Islamists" might be nasty but nowehere near as bad as a secular, economic nationalsit, pro-Soviet regime eh? And if you want to talk about harbouring terror what about Saudi Arabia? So clearly, this was not the reason.

    What Afghanistan harbours isn't terror but an important strategic position, this is why it's been fought over for centuries long before the Al Qaeda bogeyman was used as an excuse.

    I think that poll is a lie (it's funny how people will believe that Rupert Murdoch owned papers are engaging in "propaganda" against the war, but that the mass media in the imperialist countries would never tell barefaced lies to support the war - as they've been proven to do many times). If this is true why did they have to rig the last elections? And how exactly are they conducting this poll?

    But even if that poll were true, so what? It's still a murderous colonial occupation and a dictatorship whether or not it momentarily gains the passive, resigned aceptance of a population terrfied into submission. This doesn't change the fact that the colonial puppet regime is a fundamentalist, murderous, corrupt and misogynistic (even more so than the Taliban) regime based on tribal warlords, which defends US startegic interests at the cost of Afghan blood.

    Are you telling me that Afghans don't have the right to fight against this dictatorship? Facts are facts whatever some opinion poll in the west says.

    I don't wish death on any soldier, and this is why I call for them all to be removed from Afghanistan immediately. Anyone calling for them to stay on a mission of theft and rape of a country that despises them, can stop crying about those coming back in body bags - don't blame the rape victim (the Afghan people) for repelling the aggressor.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  5. #25
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Well the comparison to Ireland was referring to the Irish struggle for independence and not the Troubles, but anyway:

    Having grown up in NI and experienced first hand the stuff that interests people in further fields I can appreciate how complicated these things become, the british army role in NI has been a complicated one, there has been a sectarian war here and that's been, for people living here, the bigger issue.
    But the sectarian war is inseperable from the British occupation of the 6 counties...

    If you read any of the good early accounts of the troubles, like From Civil Rights To Armalites, you'll know that there was a popular, mainly left wing, struggle which became mired in a republican rennaisance, the traditional form of resistance won out and it more than 25yrs for republicans to realise that the very traditionalism of it meant that it had become vital to the union with Britain and the unionist status quo.
    Yes I would agree on this. But the struggle for national liberation is still a legitimate one, but as you say if it stays at this level it becomes co-opted and part of the aparatus of domination,a s the traitors like Gerry Adams show today.

    But this is no reason not to participate in that struggle, you talk about a "left-wing" perspective...how are left-wingers ever supposed to win the sympathy of the majority of ordinary people who want basic democratic rights like not to live under occupation and apartheid (which is what Catholicvs in the occupied 6 Counties were essentially subjected to) if instead of intervening actively while criticizing the leadership, they snobbilly sit around dismissing the struggles for "not being left wing enough"...and then end up being apologists for a colonial occupation! (very "left-wing").

    The kids are glad to play their part, lends meaning to their lives at that stage at which their identity is just emerging and they want to live a large and history making heroic life.
    I don't know how you know this, but if so, good for them...they have much to teach the hand-wringing "third campists" in the west.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    But the sectarian war is inseperable from the British occupation of the 6 counties...
    Nawh, some people would like to think so but its not really, the British have declared no selfish or strategic interest in NI years and years ago, the soldiers were originally deployed in Northern Ireland by a Labour Government terrified that genocide was about to be unleashed on the RC minority.

    Yes I would agree on this. But the struggle for national liberation is still a legitimate one, but as you say if it stays at this level it becomes co-opted and part of the aparatus of domination,a s the traitors like Gerry Adams show today.
    What traitors? You've got to be kidding, Adams is a very shrewd operator and his effort from years back to politicise the conflict and take the guns out of the picture is commendable.

    Even if you are a seperatist, and there's many republicans who'd not prefer Dublin rule to Westminister rule, at some point you've got to realise when particular tactics have become part of the problem instead of part of the solution. Seriously, I hate to hear comments like this.

    But this is no reason not to participate in that struggle, you talk about a "left-wing" perspective...how are left-wingers ever supposed to win the sympathy of the majority of ordinary people who want basic democratic rights like not to live under occupation and apartheid (which is what Catholicvs in the occupied 6 Counties were essentially subjected to) if instead of intervening actively while criticizing the leadership, they snobbilly sit around dismissing the struggles for "not being left wing enough"...and then end up being apologists for a colonial occupation! (very "left-wing").
    I'm thinking about whether or not to put you on ignore.

    I'm an RC who has lived 30yrs in NI, my mum and dad lived right through the onset of the "modern troubles", there's nothing like the jack booted imperialism you're pretending to know all about and there's not the apartheid you're talking about either, there's polarisation and exclusive community identities and neighbourhoods but you could as easily claim there's apartheid in the US because of ethnic divisions there. Its an insult to the people who suffered and resisted genuine apartheid in South Africa to make those sorts of comparisons with present day post-settlement NI.

    I don't know how you know this, but if so, good for them...they have much to teach the hand-wringing "third campists" in the west.
    I know that adolescents are easily recruited as useful idiots by fanatics because they're idiots and easily seduced by propaganda which appeals to a narcassistic or dramatic streek.

  7. #27
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Nawh, some people would like to think so but its not really, the British have declared no selfish or strategic interest in NI years and years ago, the soldiers were originally deployed in Northern Ireland by a Labour Government terrified that genocide was about to be unleashed on the RC minority.
    Yes, I know the excuses the "left" apologists have made. The national chauvinist Socialist Workers Party in Britain argued the same thing at the time. But look what those troops sent to "protect" the Catholics ended up doing. MAybe what they were really scard of was the possibility of the Irish working class on both sides of the border eventually taking consciousness of the need to arm themselves on a mass basis...

    I'm thinking about whether or not to put you on ignore.
    Be my guest.

    I'm an RC who has lived 30yrs in NI, my mum and dad lived right through the onset of the "modern troubles", there's nothing like the jack booted imperialism you're pretending to know all about
    I know enough, do you want me to start? I don't want to, but I will if you make me.

    But in any case imperialism operates in different forms. Not every dictatorship or occupation is as brutal as the other is it?

    But if you deny it was apartheid then what else do you call a systematic division and military occupation of a nation and priveliging of a settler population above the native population in terms of jobs, wealth, composition of the security forces, civil rights, permanent paramilitary terrorism with complete impunity from the stat, etc.?

    and there's not the apartheid you're talking about either, there's polarisation and exclusive community identities and neighbourhoods but you could as easily claim there's apartheid in the US because of ethnic divisions there. Its an insult to the people who suffered and resisted genuine apartheid in South Africa to make those sorts of comparisons with present day post-settlement NI.
    It's not an insult, the struggles for all those oppressed by imperialism and settler populations complement each other and share a common enemy and goal. Are the murals depiciting the struggles of the Basques and Palestinians "insulting" to those nations too? It seems you think "solidarity" is a 4-letter word...

    I know that adolescents are easily recruited as useful idiots by fanatics because they're idiots and easily seduced by propaganda which appeals to a narcassistic or dramatic streek
    It's funny how those from exploited and oppressed populations who refuse to accept the humiliating role which the ruling classes have designed for them are always called "narcissistic" and "dramatic", but proffessional soldiers who choose to go there and then shoot unarmed schoolkids are "heroes".
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  8. #28
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    See,... Now if we all had shared our fire and meat in the first place, we all could have had some pudding too!~
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  9. #29
    Senior Member Nighthawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    It's funny how those from exploited and oppressed populations who refuse to accept the humiliating role which the ruling classes have designed for them are always called "narcissistic" and "dramatic", but proffessional soldiers who choose to go there and then shoot unarmed schoolkids are "heroes".
    As a professional soldier, I never chose to go anywhere. I went where I was ordered to go. Most of the time, I never wanted to be there in the first place (noteable exception was Germany). We also had very strict rules of warfare that forbid the shooting of unarmed civilians ... even unarmed enemy soldiers. During my time in service, we adhered to those rules.

    Where the line is blurred however, is when civilians take up arms and then blend back into the shadows when confronted by the soldiers. Sometimes they use their civilian status to hide after a strike against their enemy. This leads to a total warfare in which civilians are no longer safe. According to the law of land warfare, it is unlawful for belligerents to engage in combat without meeting certain requirements, among them the wearing of a distinctive uniform or other distinctive signs visible at a distance, and the carrying of weapons openly.

    Did this happen in this instance in Afghanistan? I'm not sure. Hard to tell. What concerns me is the report of handcuffs on some of the killed individuals. If true, that sounds like execution, not warfare.

  10. #30
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthawk View Post
    ... What concerns me is the report of handcuffs on some of the killed individuals. If true, that sounds like execution, not warfare.
    Can you define what is considered as execution, when comparing it to "warfare"?...
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

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