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  1. #131
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    What's with the loaded statements?
    Is that all you can come up with?
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  2. #132
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    1.) You really can't see the absurdity of that question, particularly in light of that female MP's personal history? In any event, the matter of scientific polling versus anecdotal evidence (as well as objective indicators of well-being versus unsupported ideological assumptions) was by far the most salient point.

    2.) The fact that this was an independent poll undertaken by professionals with experience in such environments (not that I agree with your simplistic and misleading descriptors).

    3.) First of all, I never claimed the government was particularly popular, just far more popular than the Taliban. Second, depressed turn-out in Karzai's strongholds (due to Taliban threats and violence) was a strong handicap; the government's election fraud was probably closer to what his level of national support actually was relative to his opponents (not a justification, merely an observation).

    4.) Relative to the Taliban, it most certainly will (and in several important respects already has)-not that it particularly matters in terms of why we are there. And, as a counter-revolutionary tool of the Amerikan Empire, I don't have to care what the oppressed masses of the world allegedly believe regarding this particular issue.
    Right so "teh Taliban" are so terrifying they can affect the election result (I don't doubt this) but the armed bullies of the US army and the Northern Alliance are not (laughable).

    Regarding "anecdotal" evidence, it's just funny how there are countless "anectdotal" claims all saying the same thing and that tie in with each other, and are consistent with the very few cases of abuse which get filmed/admitted.

    Regarding your repeated references to the "Taleban" bogeyman, this just shows how much you've been brainwashed I'm afraid - as well as patronizing in your belief that Afghans are only capable of either living under a foreign occupation/puppet dictatorship, or the Taliban (who as I already said countless times were the result of US sabotage of the secular, relatively enlightened, pro-Soviet regimes of the 1970's):

    Most insurgents in Afghanistan not religiously motivated, military reports say - The Boston Globe
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  3. #133
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prototype View Post
    Is that all you can come up with?
    Humble though my contribution may be, it is exponentially more impressive than some fantasy about WWII and Afghanistan being fought on behalf of Israel.

  4. #134
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Regarding your repeated references to the "Taleban" bogeyman, this just shows how much you've been brainwashed I'm afraid - as well as patronizing in your belief that Afghans are only capable of either living under a foreign occupation/puppet dictatorship, or the Taliban (who as I already said countless times were the result of US sabotage of the secular, relatively enlightened, pro-Soviet regimes of the 1970's):
    The power of regime you are referring to was based upon the barrel of a gun rather than the support of the citizens of Afghanistan-the current Afghan regime, in contrast, at least won the first free and reasonably fair election in Afghan history and likely would have won another (albeit by default) in the first round were Pashtun areas not threatened with violence by the Taliban and allied warlords. Speaking of the latter, they would not be that substantial a problem without the Taliban, now based predominantly across the border in Pakistan, so it is indeed the Taliban who are the crucial factor in this equation.

    And once again, when the presence of foreign troops is supported by a large majority of the population, it is not an "occupation," except in the minds of radical Islamists and Marxists who are obsessed with the notion of Western/capitalist oppression and the imperative for resistance against the same.

  5. #135
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Humble though my contribution may be, it is exponentially more impressive than some fantasy about WWII and Afghanistan being fought on behalf of Israel.
    I agree with what ever is in bold!

    Everyone knows about the insane amounts of natural resources, and available land in the Middle East, especially Israel!


    Isn't it the whole point of the socialist agenda to have free trade, or should I say to "barter"? It must have been quite beneficial for the US and Britain to save millions of Jews in WWII, in trade for oil, and land...

    Plans for Redrawing the Middle East: The Project for a "New Middle East"

    U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice’s speech on the "New Middle East" had set the stage. The Israeli attacks on Lebanon --which had been fully endorsed by Washington and London-- have further compromised and validated the existence of the geo-strategic objectives of the United States, Britain, and Israel. According to Professor Mark Levine the “neo-liberal globalizers and neo-conservatives, and ultimately the Bush Administration, would latch on to creative destruction as a way of describing the process by which they hoped to create their new world orders,” and that “creative destruction [in] the United States was, in the words of neo-conservative philosopher and Bush adviser Michael Ledeen, ‘an awesome revolutionary force’ for (…) creative destruction…”2

    Anglo-American occupied Iraq, particularly Iraqi Kurdistan, seems to be the preparatory ground for the balkanization (division) and finlandization (pacification) of the Middle East. Already the legislative framework, under the Iraqi Parliament and the name of Iraqi federalization, for the partition of Iraq into three portions is being drawn out. (See map below)

    Moreover, the Anglo-American military roadmap appears to be vying an entry into Central Asia via the Middle East. The Middle East, Afghanistan, and Pakistan are stepping stones for extending U.S. influence into the former Soviet Union and the ex-Soviet Republics of Central Asia. The Middle East is to some extent the southern tier of Central Asia. Central Asia in turn is also termed as “Russia’s Southern Tier” or the Russian “Near Abroad.”

    Many Russian and Central Asian scholars, military planners, strategists, security advisors, economists, and politicians consider Central Asia (“Russia’s Southern Tier”) to be the vulnerable and “soft under-belly” of the Russian Federation.3

    It should be noted that in his book, The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geo-strategic Imperatives, Zbigniew Brzezinski, a former U.S. National Security Advisor, alluded to the modern Middle East as a control lever of an area he, Brzezinski, calls the Eurasian Balkans. The Eurasian Balkans consists of the Caucasus (Georgia, the Republic of Azerbaijan, and Armenia) and Central Asia (Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan) and to some extent both Iran and Turkey. Iran and Turkey both form the northernmost tiers of the Middle East (excluding the Caucasus4) that edge into Europe and the former Soviet Union.
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  6. #136
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    The power of regime you are referring to was based upon the barrel of a gun rather than the support of the citizens of Afghanistan-the current Afghan regime, in contrast, at least won the first free and reasonably fair election in Afghan history and likely would have won another (albeit by default) in the first round were Pashtun areas not threatened with violence by the Taliban and allied warlords. Speaking of the latter, they would not be that substantial a problem without the Taliban, now based predominantly across the border in Pakistan, so it is indeed the Taliban who are the crucial factor in this equation.
    If you think that the post-2001 Afghan regime isn't based on the power of the gun then there's not really anything I can say to you, it's a claim beyond parody.The US military strategists and warlords who form the base of the Karzai regime aren't so naive sadly.

    And once again, when the presence of foreign troops is supported by a large majority of the population, it is not an "occupation," except in the minds of radical Islamists and Marxists who are obsessed with the notion of Western/capitalist oppression and the imperative for resistance against the same.
    Even if the claim about "large majority support" were true, how on earth would that prevent it being an occupation? Are you saying dictatorships and empires can never have popular support after the act of establishing power by brute force? Is this really a historically justified claim?

    Maybe you need to start judging your opinions on the objective interests that a regime serves, and not grasping at dubious opinion polls (which change with time anyway, leaving stranded the sycophants who chase them).

    As for radical Islamists and Marxists, I am proud to tell you I'm a communist and that your Mcarthyite bullshit doesn't bother me at all, but you should know that it's a fact that the great majority of people in the world hate the US empire and oppose the "War on Terror", and are neither radical Islamists nor marxists. Likewise, most of those resisting ina fghanistan are not "radical Islamists", but ethnic nationalists resisting the occupation of their land (as the US and British army have admitted).
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  7. #137
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I know some Kurdish people who would be pretty happy about that map.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #138
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    If you think that the post-2001 Afghan regime isn't based on the power of the gun....

    Even if the claim about "large majority support" were true, how on earth would that prevent it being an occupation?

    I am proud to tell you I'm a communist and that your Mcarthyite bullshit doesn't bother me at all
    1.) there you go with the simplistic, dichotomous thinking again....what else could be expected from someone devoted to an ideology that presumes the existence of virtually monolithic class interests? Mao would be so proud of you! There is a continuum between power based on force or the threat thereof, and power based on popular consent. The Karzai government leans far more to the latter than either the Taliban or that 70's government you like so much.

    2.) Because the more correct label in such an instance, assuming there is some semblance of local authority at least somewhat representative of said popular support, is "alliance."

    3.) How any alleged "McCarthyite bullshit" applies to you is unclear, as McCarthyism was based on witch-hunts against people suspected of communist sympathies based on insufficient (or altogether absent) evidence, not on anti-communism.

  9. #139
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prototype View Post
    It must have been quite beneficial for the US and Britain to save millions of Jews in WWII, in trade for oil, and land...
    The relatively few European Jews who were saved from the holocaust was almost incidental, as far as the motivations and tactics of the Allies were concerned-not only did Allied countries (with the notable exception of the UK) fail to receive an already shamefully low quota of Jewish refugees into their countries, but the military command explicitly did not consider freeing the death camps to be a priority throughout the the war (a decision that was tactically sound, but hardly indicative of some pro-Jewish conspiracy).

    As for oil and land (I assume you mean military bases) interests in the Middle East, that was already taken care of by Lawrence of Arabia during WWI; the creation of the state of Israel only hindered such designs by providing a basis for Soviet inroads and a focal point for united regional action.

  10. #140
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    1.) there you go with the simplistic, dichotomous thinking again....what else could be expected from someone devoted to an ideology that presumes the existence of virtually monolithic class interests?
    It was you who introduced the dichotomy my friend, I just noted that it didn't really favour you to do so.

    There is a continuum between power based on force or the threat thereof, and power based on popular consent.
    I agree, but thanks for "explaining".

    The Karzai government leans far more to the latter than either the Taliban or that 70's government you like so much.
    I don't see any reason to believe this, either based one election turnouts, results, the origins of the regime or the day to way it operates, etc. But you can keep stating this lie at me if you like.

    2.) Because the more correct label in such an instance, assuming there is some semblance of local authority at least somewhat representative of said popular support, is "alliance."
    Nearly all occupations and empires in history have rested on an alliance with some section of the occupied country. They're called "agents" and the theory is called "divide and rule". The fact you think this is some kind of novelty just makes you seem very naive, which doesn't go well with your patronizing tone.

    3.) How any alleged "McCarthyite bullshit" applies to you is unclear, as McCarthyism was based on witch-hunts against people suspected of communist sympathies based on insufficient (or altogether absent) evidence, not on anti-communism
    It can also be used to refer to general paranoia and villification of communists. And are you saying that it's only Mcarthyism if there's "insufficient evidence", i.e. witch-hunting real commies is fair game?

    I'm glad we're seeing the true colours of this "lover of democracy"!
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

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