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  1. #91
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Hitler is not even close to the same as Osama.

    9/11 was not even close to the distruction in Pearl Harbor.

    And if saving Jews was the justification for WWII then we did a pretty lame job of it because we refused to accept German's offer to take their Jews as immigrant and refused to take out the death camps even though we knew where they were located.

    WWI too was mostly BS (in addition to becoming the cause of WWII) as the "war to end all wars" in response to the 'isolationists' (i.e. noninterventionalists)
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  2. #92
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthawk View Post
    In my life experience ... sadly ... human life is pretty cheap. It becomes cheaper the farther you go up the heirarchy.

    Captain: Lieutenant, take your platoon, cross this minefield, and attack the machine gun emplacements up on that hill.
    Which doesn't make much sense to me, because your parents paid so much to raise you, and your wife put in so much effort to bag you, and your economy expects so much work from you when you get home, and all of their initial investment is gone because some government thought it wouldn't cost them too much to let you get full of shrapnel.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  3. #93
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Clearly, you have no idea what Afghanistan is. Or rather a very romantic view of it, a view that is clearly not very realistic.

    And it's not "windbagging flabby academics", unfortunately. You cannot try oversimplify this complex situation just for the sake of ideology, especially when you lack ground datas. You would make exactly the same mistakes than those the neocons did.

    I think you should try to gather more informations, especially, (once again) about the history of this country -which is not "many centuries old, but rather a very recent artificial construction-, and about the actual differences between the fanatical Talibans, a cruel warlord like Dostom, and a brave man like Ahmed Shah Massoud was -for instance-.

    Despite what you seem to hope, they did not unite against the so-called "Western invader". Ask yourself why.
    Well what we call Afghnaistan today has been a unified state (again, at least at a superstructural level) since the 18th century, making it an older state than any Latin american state or Italy or Germany for instance - right or wrong? And Britain, Russia, and the US, among others, have been fighting there pretty much since then, right or wrong?

    Why the Afghans have not come together to fight the colonizers, and whether this would be rational and progressive, are also two very different issues, no? I don't recall claiming that this had happened to the extent that is necessarry or that it is inevitable.

    One thing is to identify an historic possibility for forging a nation out of the circumstances created unwittingly by imperialism, another is to claim that this is inevitable and that the imperialists and their feudal agents present no obstalce - which would indeed be simplistic.

    As for romantic - this would suggest some view of Afghans as "innocent" or "unchanging". This is clearly not the case. Like anywhere, there are contradictions, and forces which are thrust into confrontation with the Empire as well as those who attempt to mediate for it or be its outright agent.In fact I would say the attitude that "it's just too complex" and writing off Afghanistan as forever bound to remain in darkness, is a quite "Orientalist" view to use the Edward Said term - which at heart depends on the mystical, romantic view of the "Eastern" peoples as unchanging, ahistorical and impenetrable. On the other hand, I see them as just like westerners - potential hsitorical subjects, providing they take consciousness of their situation.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #94
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Well what we call Afghnaistan today has been a unified state (again, at least at a superstructural level) since the 18th century, making it an older state than any Latin american state or Italy or Germany for instance - right or wrong? And Britain, Russia, and the US, among others, have been fighting there pretty much since then, right or wrong?
    Wrong. Next question, please?

    Why the Afghans have not come together to fight the colonizers, and whether this would be rational and progressive, are also two very different issues, no? I don't recall claiming that this had happened to the extent that is necessarry or that it is inevitable.
    Afghans are NOT colonized. I don't care about your ideological agenda.

    Next question?

    One thing is to identify an historic possibility for forging a nation out of the circumstances created unwittingly by imperialism, another is to claim that this is inevitable and that the imperialists and their feudal agents present no obstalce - which would indeed be simplistic.
    Forgive me, but this is exactly what I would call "windbagging flabby academics". I mean, a discourse that is solely base on a vague ideological posture, that is out of touch with reality.

    You're an hopeless romantic, do you know that?

    You should try to make sentences that do not necessarily include big words like "colonized", or "imperialist"... Just try it, it would make you a good intellectual exercice. Marxist class analysis does not work everywhere, especially under a feudal environment.

    Next question?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #95
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Its not imperialism at least not in the traditional sense of the usage of the word. That is because "we", the USA, are getting essentially nothing out of it except our youth killed and tax dollars (including future tax dollars) spent. It wouldn't be so bad if it was imperialism for our nation because at least that would infer we were gaining wealth in the process. All we as a nation get is a bunch of worthless propaganda and debt.

    If it is imperialism its for the benefit of a 3rd party, not our nation.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  6. #96
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curzon View Post
    And Israel didn't exist during the 1940s.
    Israel was founded in 1948.

    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    And if saving Jews was the justification for WWII then we did a pretty lame job
    Probably because that wasnt the justification for WWII.

  7. #97
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    And?

    Proceed...

    Are you refering to the way Jews were genocided during WWII (by the Nazis and their allies) or ethnically cleansed after WWII (by the Communist and the Arab countries)?


    ---

    (Yet I fail to see a Genocide or something like an Ethnic cleansing in current-days Afghanistan)
    ... Of course you don't see it!... Why on earth would they want you to see that?
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  8. #98
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prototype View Post
    ... Of course you don't see it!... Why on earth would they want you to see that?
    So, according to you, who genocides who? Who ethnically cleans who? And why, for what gain, for what purpose?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  9. #99
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Wrong. Next question, please?
    Ok, well for the information of the thread, it was correct.

    Forgive me, but this is exactly what I would call "windbagging flabby academics". I mean, a discourse that is solely base on a vague ideological posture, that is out of touch with reality.
    The fact that the quote got to you enough that you quoted it twice, is enough proof that it hit the mark.

    You should try to make sentences that do not necessarily include words like "colonized", or "imperialist"... Just try, it would make you a good intellectual exercice. Marxist class analysis does not work everywhere, especially under a feudal environment.
    Marxist class analysis doesn't work on feudalism? Are you sure about that...? I thought Marx explained the origins, mechanics and decline of feudalism quite well. Though you are irght that he was too optimistic about the possibilities of global capitalism eradicating this (or at least, from what I have read). For this, much more useful is Trotsky's theory of Permanent Revolution which explains the intricate ties between underdevelopment, the survival of pre-capitalist proeprty and social relations, and the imeprialist global system.

    Or if you don;t like Trotsky, read Frantz Fanon "The Wretched of the Earth", who in Chapter 5 explains this relationship quite well (and he wrote in French, plus Sartre wrote a foreword, that's what I call a bargain!).
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #100
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Its not imperialism at least not in the traditional sense of the usage of the word. That is because "we", the USA, are getting essentially nothing out of it except our youth killed and tax dollars (including future tax dollars) spent. It wouldn't be so bad if it was imperialism for our nation because at least that would infer we were gaining wealth in the process. All we as a nation get is a bunch of worthless propaganda and debt.

    If it is imperialism its for the benefit of a 3rd party, not our nation.
    IsraeeeI, mean Palestine?, no wait, yeah,... Israel!...
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

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