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  1. #21
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, I don't make that argument. I never intend to pay. I pirate it to keep, and I have no guilt.
    I'm all for copyright (shortening duration) and patent (eliminating stupidity and respecting prior art) reform, don't get me wrong. I'm all in favor of free software, public domain works, etc. But you're just wrong on this case, Magic.

    Now FM's right when he says that theft (or, in this case, making use of someone else's work without recompense) is wrong even if the person affected is rich. But for the sake of argument, say I'm a sound editor who makes 35K a year making the music you like sound good. I'm not the artist, I'm not the publisher, but my work is integral to the quality of the end product that you enjoy. How do you justify not paying me for my work? I need to pay rent, eat, save, etc. just as much as anyone else.

    The only answer that I can come up with is that it's easy and you're unlikely to get caught. And, like FM says, that there's almost zero chance you'll ever have to look me in the face and explain your behavior. That's a pretty cowardly argument. No amount of rationalization will change that.
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  2. #22
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    I don't think of it as piracy, i think of it as economic forces coming into play to push down the prices of over-priced entertainment commodities. If I can invoke history as my support, laws and human systems will adapt and respond to changes in economic factors such as Disbursement capacity. When the digital age arrived, it drastically reduced the real and "real world" AVERAGE cost of obtaining any song or movie.

    This isn't happening because people want to be jerks and not pay for music/movies, this is happening because the internet and computer technology gives the capacity for INFINITE reproduction of ANY song or movie! Do not underestimate the significance of that or you will not understand the forces at play and where the business will be going.

    Think about it: If we all had our own philosopher's stone, and cold transmute any matter into Gold, what do you think would happen to the value and price of Gold? Surely, Gold will still be in demand - gold does not tarnish, so it will still be desired to make Wedding Rings and for coating certain electronic components. but the price of it would drop through the floor as any matter could be turned into it. Gold would be worth less than pennies, but not worthless. This is the actual not-metaphorical analog we're working with here. Any hard disk space can be turned into any MP3 storehouse, and as such an MP3 is worth less than a penny, but places like iTunes and the applestore can sell a song for a dollar still. I believe that price will drop even further as an equilibrium is established . An mp3 is capable of being distributed infinitely at almost zero cost, so really, the price of them should be zero, but it wont happen like that as there's a certain level of cost to even make it possible to find an mp3.

  3. #23
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Well, this brings us to the heart of the issue. Do you believe that musician, filmmaker, author, etc. are endeavors that are worthy of compensation? Do you believe that these are endeavors that people should be able to do as their job? Or do you believe that these should merely be passions that people do for their own enrichment? If you hold the position you state above, I don't see how you can answer anything but the latter. And I think that's a shame, because the freedom to spend the majority of your time on art makes it better. This has been true ever since the patronage of the arts during the Renaissance, and probably before that.
    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    I'm all for copyright (shortening duration) and patent (eliminating stupidity and respecting prior art) reform, don't get me wrong. I'm all in favor of free software, public domain works, etc. But you're just wrong on this case, Magic.

    Now FM's right when he says that theft (or, in this case, making use of someone else's work without recompense) is wrong even if the person affected is rich. But for the sake of argument, say I'm a sound editor who makes 35K a year making the music you like sound good. I'm not the artist, I'm not the publisher, but my work is integral to the quality of the end product that you enjoy. How do you justify not paying me for my work? I need to pay rent, eat, save, etc. just as much as anyone else.

    The only answer that I can come up with is that it's easy and you're unlikely to get caught. And, like FM says, that there's almost zero chance you'll ever have to look me in the face and explain your behavior. That's a pretty cowardly argument. No amount of rationalization will change that.
    I've thought fairly hard about these two posts, and I guess what you could say is, it's worth breaking the system.

    That's what I meant when I said I felt like I was being asked to pay a ransom. At first, your heartstrings tug and you think you should pay the capture to free the hostage, but then you think about it. The capture put that person in that position, they probably won't free them if you pay them, and you have them both encouragement and additional means to take another hostage (or inspiration for others to do the same).

    When those ads (presumably funded at the behest of fat cat producers and publishers with money that, hey, could have gone to the people with lower paying jobs) they are basically saying "thanks to us greedy bastards, these people who do the work you care about aren't getting much money. You know we won't give up our money, so if you pirate, we'll just skew the system to compensate for the reduced profit, and they'll get even less money.". In other words "Stop pirating or we'lll shoot the bunny rabbit".

    So I thought, naaaha, I'm going to fall for that. Just like dealing with the hostage taker, by not paying, you are lengthening the hostage's ordeal, and putting them at some risk, but it actually pays off more in the long run.

    Piracy helps to dissolve the system that made this quagmire in the first place.
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  4. #24
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Piracy helps to dissolve the system that made this quagmire in the first place.
    Well you are right on this point. There is an inverse correlation between the amount of piracy in a country and the size of its entertainment industries. Pirating tends to be more common in Europen countries than in the U.S. and Canada. It should be no surprise that North America has a much larger entertainment industry than Europe does. Likewise piracy is rampant is much more common in most Asian countries compared to Japan. It should not be a surprise that Japan produces a lot more entertainment than other Asian countries.

    Businesses follow where the money is. If piracy continues to grow, then the number of entertainment products will diminish.
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  5. #25
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masoch View Post
    Nobody is suffering as much as they claim to be.
    Including the consumer. I do pirate but I do think consumers playing the "waa they make too much" is a pathetic argument.

    We don't have to have this stuff, why take it without paying?

    Of course we all want everything free.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I've thought fairly hard about these two posts, and I guess what you could say is, it's worth breaking the system.

    That's what I meant when I said I felt like I was being asked to pay a ransom. At first, your heartstrings tug and you think you should pay the capture to free the hostage, but then you think about it. The capture put that person in that position, they probably won't free them if you pay them, and you have them both encouragement and additional means to take another hostage (or inspiration for others to do the same).

    When those ads (presumably funded at the behest of fat cat producers and publishers with money that, hey, could have gone to the people with lower paying jobs) they are basically saying "thanks to us greedy bastards, these people who do the work you care about aren't getting much money. You know we won't give up our money, so if you pirate, we'll just skew the system to compensate for the reduced profit, and they'll get even less money.". In other words "Stop pirating or we'lll shoot the bunny rabbit".

    So I thought, naaaha, I'm going to fall for that. Just like dealing with the hostage taker, by not paying, you are lengthening the hostage's ordeal, and putting them at some risk, but it actually pays off more in the long run.

    Piracy helps to dissolve the system that made this quagmire in the first place.
    So, unless I'm inferring too much (and tell me if I am), you've basically decided that the system of the entertainment industry is inherently a bad thing. Well, the way the entertainment industry is set up is not unique among businesses. So if that's true, are there any other industries that don't meet your ethical standard and cause you to use their products but not pay for them? Are there any other businesses in which you find average people to be acceptable collateral damage in the noble crusade to bring down their bosses? Or is the entertainment industry singled out for your derision?

    Your ransom analogy is true in one sense and not true in another. The salary of the average working stiff in entertainment is not going to go up or down based on whether you pirate things. But it does affect how much entertainment is made, and thus how much work is available. So while I see the same self-serving angle to those ads that you do, they're not any less true because of it.

    In the end, these people (fat cats and working stiffs alike) work to produce a product that is in demand and that people enjoy. To take it without paying for it is wrong, no matter how you want to dress it up. If you wish to protest the way they do business, then simply don't use the product. If enough people do likewise, the price will come down and the fat cats will make less. I don't know what you do, but if I came to where you work and said "I'd like your product or service, but I'm not going to pay for it because I don't like the way your boss does business", how would that go over?
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  7. #27
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    The purpose of copyright laws is to provide creators with sufficient compensation to make it worth their while to ply their trade.

    There is no evidence to support the claim that musicians cannot earn a living without mass marketing songs. Therefore, market forces should be allowed to determine a musician's compensation, as it does for the rest of us.

    Using legislation to enrich a favored few is not in the public interest. There is no guilt in circumventing unfair laws.

  8. #28
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    May I once again point out that this is far less about whot either of these two extremist sides are playing at, than it is about value?

    We will only pay whot we think is WORTH paying, no matter whot anyone else says.

    I will pay for anything I feel deserves it; I will pay ALOT if I think it's worthy of such.

    If they want to charge me $35+tax per song, then guess whot? I'm not going to pay them for it.

    But I no longer have to do without in the process. I can still have the song or movie without paying them. It's their choice whether they want to price it for whot it's worth, so that I'll actually pay them for it or not. If they want to jack the rates up unreasonably high, then they will get NOTHING. If they charge whot is a fair price, then they get paid a fair price.

    Those that're caught in the middle... well... they say a soldier knows whot they signed up for when they get shipped into a warzone. The employees and musicians know whot they're getting into in this 'so called war'. If they want to fight in the war, then they have to accept that they may take a few rounds in the process.

    I'm actively going into an industry with an excessively high rate of piracy... I know the risks I'm getting into. Thing is... I also know that, despite whot people say, most tend to agree with me, even if they don't know it. If things get too expensive, they stop buying them. If something's within whot they consider to be a fair price for the service rendered, they will pay gladly for it.

    Why do yeu think people still buy starcraft for $20 when any other game that old would be $5 or less in a bargain bin? Yeu can download the game and purchase it online with no cost at all, and yeu KNOW they've made their sales back on it... yet people realize that the game's still WORTH $20, even after all these years, and so... they still pay for it.

    Supply and demand, advertisements, and word of mouth and brand loyalty can shift our positions on how much we think something is "worth", but we will still only pay whot it's worth and nothing more. All these other factors do is change how much we value it.

    Yeu still can't charge more than the value is worth; when the recording industries learn this, they will increase their profits and stop loosing customers. If they continue to increase the cost more and more and more to make up for the customers they lost from increasing their pricing past the value they're willing to pay... they'll just loose more customers for increasing it past THEIR value they're willing to pay.

    This isn't a pirate-driven problem. Most "pirates" wouldn't have bought the stuff anyway. They would've either done without, or just have gotten it some other way.

    The cycle is the companies themselves are killing themselves on their own death spiral, which is pretty much independant of piracy.

    Yes, piracy is up, because of 2 main factors:

    1: More people who would NOT have bought the games/music/movies in the first place now have computers and CAN pirate it.
    2: The rising price for lower value (crappier music but increased cost) is bringing people who WOULD have paid previously into NOT paying for it because they don't think it's worth the money anymore; some of these will just do without, and some will pirate instead as they weren't going to pay for it in the first place at that ridiculous cost.

    In neither of these cases, does the pirating directly correlate to a sales loss *BECAUSE* of the pirating, but rather, the pirating is lost already.

    Oh and I guess there's a 3rd group.

    3: Those who are too poor due to rising gas prices, tuition costs, housing costs, etc, and can't afford to buy this stuff anymore, so wouldn't've bought it in the first place, and just pirate it so they at least have something to do.

    The amount of people who pirate with the intent to sell to other people, and those who do it simply because they "just don't feel like paying for it" even though they can afford it, is actually very small. The other 3 groups are included in the "ZOMG PIRATES!" statistics though, even though essentially that's like including every single person who doesn't buy a copy. The vast majority of them were never going to buy a copy so literally can't be counted as "losses" because their money was never going to be there to begin with, piracy or not.

  9. #29
    . Blank's Avatar
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    In all fairness, almost anyone could do the job of the sound mixer, but very few people would completely replicate a song, note by note, lyric by lyric of an artist they've never met/heard of.

    Essentially, the sound mixer doesn't do a job noteworthy enough for me to think that s/he should be paid as much as s/he's been paid in the past.
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  10. #30
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    So, unless I'm inferring too much (and tell me if I am), you've basically decided that the system of the entertainment industry is inherently a bad thing. Well, the way the entertainment industry is set up is not unique among businesses. So if that's true, are there any other industries that don't meet your ethical standard and cause you to use their products but not pay for them? Are there any other businesses in which you find average people to be acceptable collateral damage in the noble crusade to bring down their bosses? Or is the entertainment industry singled out for your derision?
    It might take a lot of analysis to make a list, but the first that came to mind was the software industry, and then a little bit longer I thought about book publishers.

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Your ransom analogy is true in one sense and not true in another. The salary of the average working stiff in entertainment is not going to go up or down based on whether you pirate things. But it does affect how much entertainment is made, and thus how much work is available. So while I see the same self-serving angle to those ads that you do, they're not any less true because of it.
    Perhaps so, but how does one respond to this? If you just keep relenting to the system to avoid the harm, the corrupt system remains there and possibly grows. If there were any easier way to fix it through the system, you could do that, but obviously, we do not access these business decisions through democracy or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    In the end, these people (fat cats and working stiffs alike) work to produce a product that is in demand and that people enjoy.
    Well, actually, the huge spike in piracy is an indication of exactly how willing people are to pay for this stuff. I wouldn't rely on supposed market forcres, consumer behavior, or the power of demand here, because that's clearly telling everyone that piracy is in (and that seems to be what you're against).

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    To take it without paying for it is wrong, no matter how you want to dress it up. If you wish to protest the way they do business, then simply don't use the product. If enough people do likewise, the price will come down and the fat cats will make less.
    How is that significantly different in its impact? Doesn't that just mean people have stopped supplying money to the business, pretty much the same way they are now? Now let's inject a little self-interest here and say that if two options harm the business equally, but one gets me a good for free, of course I'm going to go with the one that gives me a good. I don't see how it's morally worse though because I don't see how it does more damage than a boycott. With music, we aren't dealing with something I literally take and you run out of, we're dealing with something infinite. The whole reason this started happening now is because people are only now able to boycott the business and still get the products so easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I don't know what you do, but if I came to where you work and said "I'd like your product or service, but I'm not going to pay for it because I don't like the way your boss does business", how would that go over?
    Honestly, that depends. I am not at all surpised that anyone who's job is in jeopardy from this would resist, because you have to expect people to defend their interests. To that extent so would I in the scenario you give. However, I am mindful of it when my interests are tied into something other people hate, and I can understand why they hate it. It's a tough situation, and how I respond will depend on how easily I can pursue an alternative option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    In all fairness, almost anyone could do the job of the sound mixer, but very few people would completely replicate a song, note by note, lyric by lyric of an artist they've never met/heard of.

    Essentially, the sound mixer doesn't do a job noteworthy enough for me to think that s/he should be paid as much as s/he's been paid in the past.
    There's this too. There really are some jobs that might not need to exist in full-time, or at least get so much pay. I wonder if anyone here remembers the part of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy with professional telephone cleaners. That some people might depend on a job like sound mixing is sad, it's sad that the economy has arranged in such a way.

    And are alternative options to a job like sound mixing that hard to find? I think another reason a lot of people are morally ambivalent about piracy is that we so regularly have industrail workers (as just an example of many kinds of employee) who are losing their jobs in huge numbers, whole business, almost ways of life are going out of this country, and yet we hear more about a sound mixer's job being threatened? Why is one so irrelevant and the other so needing of concern? There is again a bitter sense from a lot of pirates, which admittedly may not be justified, where they will say "nobody gives a shit when I lose my job, so screw them".

    I think it comes down to the fact that groups like industrial laborers are losing their jobs for legal reasons (in their case, it's legal for businesses to move their factories to east Asian countries with super low wages) but the music business is getting hurt by something illegal.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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