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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    There is no double standard at all. Some organizations are formulated by for a purpose that is evil, even if they believe they are doing good (the Ku Klux Klan, the Mafia, communist and fascist political parties, and so on). Some are set up for a purpose that is useful (corporations would be one), and they can do good or do ill in the course of pursuing their agenda. That is not a double standard. It's a readily observable trend in society.




    I am saying that they are useful to society. Quite necessary to modern economics and standards of living, actually. They are not the best possible of institutional arrangements at all times, though. Look at how many more sole proprietors and partnerships there are in the world, even in economic powerhouses like the United States.




    I am not partisan in favor of corporations at all. Look back over my posting history and you will see how I criticize corporations for using the government and collusion to game the system to their own benefit. I reference Gabriel Kolko regularly. The criticism "partisan in favor of corporations" is silly. The equivalent would be saying that I am partisan in favor of people or horses or boats. The bottom line is that many of the critics of corporate behavior are off-base with their criticisms, and it often stems from a juvenile and economically tone-deaf view of the world.




    I am a supporter and defender of free market capitalism, and I wish the world (especially the United States) moved more in that direction. I do not like the unholy union of Big Business and Big Government that we have endured for the past century or so, and one which is rapidly accelerating under Obama.
    Yeah, most of that arguments are the stock and trade that I'm used to hearing from capitalists, not very persuasive at all and there's no moral equivalence between supremacist groups and communist ones even when they have employed equally reprehensible means to their quite different ends.

    The qualified response of stating that big business shouldnt be in bed with big government isnt something novel to me either, let me guess its the lesser evil in contrast with labour interest collusion with government? Yup, guessed it, in theory big business in cahoots with big government is a bad thing but in practice any real attack on it is closet communism or class war.

    Similarly I'm not that impressed with the partisan attack on Obama, its yet to achieve the sorts of government growth and expansionism that the Bush administration achieved with Homeland Securitas, war spending, HAARP, Project For A New American Century etc. etc.

    In reality whatever the pundits say there is a consensus between neo-cons and their opposite numbers for a reason, the economy has adjusted to require the sorts of circulation in money that is only possible through big budgets and other measures incompatible with the vision of an agrarian decentralised republic that the founding fathers had.

    I dislike the freemarket utopia only a little more than I do the red and fascist ones.

  2. #62
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, most of that arguments are the stock and trade that I'm used to hearing from capitalists, not very persuasive at all and there's no moral equivalence between supremacist groups and communist ones even when they have employed equally reprehensible means to their quite different ends.
    There is no moral equivalence between supremacist groups and communists? I would argue that to the end. Communism's ends and means are both morally repugnant.


    The qualified response of stating that big business shouldnt be in bed with big government isnt something novel to me either, let me guess its the lesser evil in contrast with labour interest collusion with government? Yup, guessed it, in theory big business in cahoots with big government is a bad thing but in practice any real attack on it is closet communism or class war.
    I didn't say anything about labor, but it is certainly another special interest lining up at the trough. And you are absolutely incorrect that "any real attack on (Big Business) is closet communism or class war." You may want to read a little more libertarian literature to see how that is just not true.


    Similarly I'm not that impressed with the partisan attack on Obama, its yet to achieve the sorts of government growth and expansionism that the Bush administration achieved with Homeland Securitas, war spending, HAARP, Project For A New American Century etc. etc.
    .

    Well, Project for a New American Century was a think tank, so they didn't spend any of our tax money. Still, I don't disagree with you here, except for the fact that you are making an argument against an argument I never made. What I meant about Obama is that the relationship between the government and business has increased under him, and it has. The bailouts have continued, the regulation has increased, he's moving into health care in an unconscionable way, and he basically decided it was appropriate for himself to make personnel decisions at American corporations, which is a very dangerous (and unconstitutional) thing for a POTUS to do. He also has populated his administration with several big-time Wall Street insiders.


    In reality whatever the pundits say there is a consensus between neo-cons and their opposite numbers for a reason, the economy has adjusted to require the sorts of circulation in money that is only possible through big budgets and other measures incompatible with the vision of an agrarian decentralised republic that the founding fathers had.
    Not every Founding Father had that vision.


    I dislike the freemarket utopia only a little more than I do the red and fascist ones.
    No utopian here. It's simply the best and fairest economic system in existence, and it's the most compatible with human rights. Until we create the Replicator and scarcity is no longer a problem, that will not change.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It's simply the best and fairest economic system in existence, and it's the most compatible with human rights. Until we create the Replicator and scarcity is no longer a problem, that will not change.
    Scarcity has been overcome in the West and other developed nations, however it remains poorly distributed.

    In your fair country, for instance, 1% own 40% of the wealth.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Do you agree with the statement in the title of this thread or can you offer some alternative perspective or argument?
    If you're talking about pop culture, socialism is way cooler.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    If you're talking about pop culture, socialism is way cooler.
    Are you sure? Why? I always thought that wired magazine etc. had managed to do wonders for Capitalism.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Are you sure? Why? I always thought that wired magazine etc. had managed to do wonders for Capitalism.
    Yes, I'm sure. Capitalism is for stiff, greedy old men. Socialism is hip, caring, etc.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Are you sure? Why? I always thought that wired magazine etc. had managed to do wonders for Capitalism.
    And never forget that it was Wired Magazine that declared Marshall McLuhan the be the patron saint of the internet.

    And there is no one cooler than Marshall McLuhan.

    In fact Marshall McLuhan invented the very idea of hot and cool media.

    We would not know what cool was without Marshall.

  8. #68
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And never forget that it was Wired Magazine that declared Marshall McLuhan the be the patron saint of the internet.

    And there is no one cooler than Marshall McLuhan.

    In fact Marshall McLuhan invented the very idea of hot and cool media.

    We would not know what cool was without Marshall.
    In other news, Victor may or may not be Marshall McLuhan.

  9. #69
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Conservatism is by definition unhip and not trendy. And this usually holds true in real life when we look at things like art, comedy, music, science, media, film, philosophy, intellectualism etc. And capitalism, laissez-faire, right-wing economics... these terms tend to fall under the conservative vs. liberal or orthodox vs. progressive context.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Conservatism is by definition unhip and not trendy. And this usually holds true in real life when we look at things like art, comedy, music, science, media, film, philosophy, intellectualism etc. And capitalism, laissez-faire, right-wing economics... these terms tend to fall under the conservative vs. liberal or orthodox vs. progressive context.

    That's a big bunch of fail from you, as usual. A cursory look at the pop culture of the 1980s and 1990s would put the lie to your assertions here.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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