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  1. #1
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Default Most apt ideology

    Dogma 1: Only ordinances based on sound reasoning are justifiable.

    Dogma 2: An individual is permitted to do all things that do not interfere with the autonomy of other individuals.

    Axiom:The sole task of the government is to protect the autonomy of the individual.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------


    Proposition: Democracy is undesirable because philistines tend not to know what is best for them.



    Form of government: Platonic Aristocracy. Comprised of 6-8 philosopher kings who are bound to the two dogmas of rationalism. A philosopher who fails to demonstrate proficiency with reasoning will be removed from bench.

    Entailed clause: Legal Positivism--all legal enterprises are bound by law to follow the stipulations laid down by the philosopher kings. Law can only be changed by their will. We trust them because they are most likely to make reasonable decisions. Moreover, those who are in tune with their reasoning faculties tend to highly value autonomy. Therefore, despite their power being absolute, they are unlikely to impinge on our autonomy.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  2. #2
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    That's fascinating... but what am I supposed to say to that?
    If you're actually proposing it as a government we should adopt, then I can be called upon to shoot a bunch of holes in it, but... I don't know if that's what you are doing.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #3
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That's fascinating... but what am I supposed to say to that?
    If you're actually proposing it as a government we should adopt, then I can be called upon to shoot a bunch of holes in it, but... I don't know if that's what you are doing.


    go for it
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  4. #4
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    First of all, we have the "watch the watcher" problem.
    There really is no way to guarantee that this whole system would be carried out as intended. How do we know rulers are obeying the clause. Who's deciding which people qualify to rule?
    You can always pull it back one step further to an easily flawed position.

    Isn't intervening to protect autonomy an infringement on autonomy?
    Why, with complete freedom, shouldn't I have the freedom to get to be one of those rulers?

    Also, what is autonomy? What if I don't want to hear really loud music, and someone else does? There's no way we can both get what we want.
    Silence is bad for them, noise is bad for me. The point of this example is that some desires are mutually exclusive, and yet neither is particularly immoral.

    Also... since when did we start assuming that people with reasonable mental faculties will respect other peoples' autonomy?
    I could easily see one of these people caring about their own
    autonomy and no one else's.

    All in all, I also doubt whether or not such philosopher kings could ever really even exist.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #5
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    First of all, we have the "watch the watcher" problem..
    Yes, it is. We'd really have to make sure we find those who are unlikely to be corrupt. God is a good scare tactic in regards to the 'watch the watcher' problem.



    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Isn't intervening to protect autonomy an infringement on autonomy?..
    Yes it is. We will achieve as much autonomy as possible (not full autonomy) by limiting the autonomy of those who limit autonomy of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Why, with complete freedom, shouldn't I have the freedom to get to be one of those rulers?
    A) You interfere with their autonomy. They claimed the position before you.
    B) Wait till one of them dies to pass your competence assessment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Also, what is autonomy? What if I don't want to hear really loud music, and someone else does??
    There needs to be a direct infringment of your autonomy. More along the lines of theft or assault.



    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Also... since when did we start assuming that people with reasonable mental faculties will respect other peoples' autonomy???
    People who value reason are likely to be independent because they can make their own decisions easily. Therefore do not depend on others for assistance. Because they value their own autonomy, they are more likely to value autonomy of others.


    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I could easily see one of these people caring about their own
    autonomy and no one else's..
    Wouldnt be prudent, the sovereign depends on obedience of subjects for his power. They'd get overthrown if they disregarded autonomy of the populace. Rebellion would be justified in such a case.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  6. #6
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Yes, it is. We'd really have to make sure we find those who are unlikely to be corrupt. God is a good scare tactic in regards to the 'watch the watcher' problem.
    Plenty of people will not believe in God.
    Also, what is this "we"? So that leaves some hypothetical "we" with the responsibilty to intelligently and honestly select the uncorruptible watchers.
    What makes this congregation of poeple who select the first kings themselves apt for the job?


    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    A) You interfere with their autonomy. They claimed the position before you.
    B) Wait till one of them dies to pass your competence assessment.
    Who exactly is doing this assessment?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    People who value reason are likely to be independent because they can make their own decisions easily. Therefore do not depend on others for assistance. Because they value their own autonomy, they are more likely to value autonomy of others.
    Perhaps, more likely, but not very. A lot of nasty rulers have been sociopaths you know. They want things for themselves but they don't care what anyone else gets. They are aslo often intelligent, and good at putting on an act. You'd really have to watch out for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Wouldnt be prudent, the sovereign depends on obedience of subjects for his power. They'd get overthrown if they disregarded autonomy of the populace. Rebellion would be justified in such a case.
    If that were such a steadfast rule, Stalin wouldn't have died of natural causes at a ripe old age, still in power.
    The same could be said for many others. There are also those who do eventually get taken out of power, but suffered so little that it was still probably a great life for them, like Idi Amin.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #7
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Ugh.. I have to go to bed.

    I'll see this tomorrow.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #8
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Plenty of people will not believe in God
    Also, what is this "we"? So that leaves some hypothetical "we" with the responsibilty to intelligently and honestly select the uncorruptible watchers.
    What makes this congregation of poeple who select the first kings themselves apt for the job?..
    In the end we are just going to have to find the aristocrats we can trust.




    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Who exactly is doing this assessment??..
    We'd need to have philosophers who are fit for the task to begin with to pull it off.






    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Perhaps, more likely, but not very. A lot of nasty rulers have been sociopaths you know.??..
    Such people would not be selected as philosopher kings. Those were mostly ETJs. We need those more akin to the typical INT Western personality.




    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If that were such a steadfast rule, Stalin wouldn't have died of natural causes at a ripe old age, still in power.
    The same could be said for many others. There are also those who do eventually get taken out of power, but suffered so little that it was still probably a great life for them, like Idi Amin.
    Such occurences tend to be rare, as irresponsible rulers tend not to last. Stalin was able to set up a scenario in a way as to avert such a natural law that obligates him to win the approval of his followers to maintain his power.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  9. #9
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    My God Bluewing, you are an arrogant fool sometimes
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  10. #10
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    My God Bluewing, you are an arrogant fool sometimes
    ..lol...
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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