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  1. #21
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The most important question is not how many Danish Muslims are violent, but rather how many Danish Muslims believe in laws against blasphemy.
    I see the way you're thinking - but you're not quite correct. The British legal system tends not to lock people up for their beliefs, providing their beliefs do not incite a break in the law.

    I do not, for example, believe in many of the laws that criminalise drug users. This belief, in itself, should cause you no concern. Similarly the fact that someone believes that someone who insults Mohammed should be killed should equally not concern you - what should concern you is the risk associated with this belief translating into action.

    In a sense you are correct. Certain beliefs may indicate a certain risk, to be taken into account with other risks. But that's about it; we don't lock people up for thinking the wrong things.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Bubbleboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The most important question is not how many Danish Muslims are violent, but rather how many Danish Muslims believe in laws against blasphemy.

    There are many marginalized populations in the world, but most don't find relatively easy theological justification for venting their grievances (real or perceived) through terrorism; ignoring the need for a massive religious reform movement within the Muslim world just perpetuates the problem.
    My impression with the muslims here is generally that they really were offended by the cartoon, but not nearly enough to wanna ruin the lives they've built up here to crusade against that old geezer with a sharp tongue (or pen). Though I'll admit it is hard to pull any words out of them on the subject.

    Personally I think it's hard for me to relate, as I don't have respect or reverence of my own culture and religion nearly as profound as most Danish muslims do for theirs.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbleboy View Post
    My impression with the muslims here is generally that they really were offended by the cartoon, but not nearly enough to wanna ruin the lives they've built up here to crusade against that old geezer with a sharp tongue (or pen).
    That's what I think as well. Sure, I get all those sentiments of the cartoons being blasphemous and racist and whatever. Bad, very, very bad. Got your pride hurt? Get over it. Life happens.

    The man is 74. He's been heavily guarded for years. Not much of a life anyway.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Bubbleboy's Avatar
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    If there wasn't such strict control of media by the government, I think the muslims not residing in the western would be better able to take it in context. Most people of the middle-east most likely have no idea that cartoonists have been drawing Jesus, God as well as Santa Claus for over a century.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    In a sense you are correct. Certain beliefs may indicate a certain risk, to be taken into account with other risks. But that's about it; we don't lock people up for thinking the wrong things.
    Of course not, but we do publicize, denounce and offer social sanctions against dangerous beliefs, as both a preventative measure and a means of instigating a change in those belief systems-and that is exactly what I'm trying to do. Ignoring the theological and social foundations of the jihadist phenomenon is analogous to combating the KKK without attempting to change segregationist beliefs back in the Old South; you're going after the symptoms rather than the disease itself, so the symptoms will just return again and again.

    And in point of fact, most of Europe (and Canada) DOES effectively lock people up (or at least fines them) for "thinking the wrong things"; that's what all those atrocious "incitement of religious or ethnic hatred" laws are all about. Some countries have even gone as far as take children away from parents over such things.

  6. #26
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Of course not, but we do publicize, denounce and offer social sanctions against dangerous beliefs, as both a preventative measure and a means of instigating a change in those belief systems-and that is exactly what I'm trying to do. Ignoring the theological and social foundations of the jihadist phenomenon is analogous to combating the KKK without attempting to change segregationist beliefs back in the Old South; you're going after the symptoms rather than the disease itself, so the symptoms will just return again and again.
    I'll go with you on that one.

    And in point of fact, most of Europe (and Canada) DOES effectively lock people up (or at least fines them) for "thinking the wrong things"; that's what all those atrocious "incitement of religious or ethnic hatred" laws are all about. Some countries have even gone as far as take children away from parents over such things.
    No. Incitement and the simple state of "belief" are totally separate. Thought crime has - as yet - not made it onto the statute books.

    There are plenty of people with particularly nasty beliefs that freely walk about. Translating these nasty beliefs into action or promulgating them in such a way as to incite others to carry them out will get you 30 years in Belmarsh. That's the difference.

  7. #27
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Since religion is the modus operandi of most belief systems of a great deal of conservative middle-eastern populations around the world, this response is bound to happen among the isolated, illiterate , radical and iqnorant masses, who embrace radical theology as a serious doctrine which they incorporate in their world perception. The fractional violent groups who will go the step further

    Factor in the political tensions between political islamic factions and the west, aswell as Europes imperialist background, and you have a pretty strong incentive. In the eyes of radical Muslims, what the Danish news paper did 5 years ago by publishing the cartoons was a direct politically motived attack by arrogant westerners against the symbolic figure of their religion, mu hammed, in order to remind the muslims of their humiliatingly low status and not just a mere satire. In their convoluted perception they somehow linked this to America's and the west's foreign policies against Muslim countries and on a bigger picture a cultural conflict between the middle-east and the west.

    Really mixing ones agenda with religions that have a clearly defined society structure is something which can lead to dangerous deslusions. Spirituality becomes a force of evil when man ceases to see the morality as relevant to what is considered RIGHT and WRONG, and sometimes reality.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  8. #28
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    Since religion is the modus operandi of most belief systems of a great deal of conservative middle-eastern populations around the world, this response is bound to happen among the isolated, illiterate , radical and iqnorant masses, who embrace radical theology as a serious doctrine which they incorporate in their world perception.
    Doesn't the Muslim Brotherhood effectively control several professional organizations (including Doctors) in Egypt? Its not at all limited to the poor and alienated.

  9. #29
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    yay, go Denmark (le sigh)

  10. #30
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Doesn't the Muslim Brotherhood effectively control several professional organizations (including Doctors) in Egypt? Its not at all limited to the poor and alienated.
    Obviously... but if you put it in to context of low level violent act's motivated by radical Islam. It will not be a doctor or a university professor who will usually hold the butchers knife, as they would be valued far more then your average gullible mentally indoctrinated fanatic profile who would be willing to take any measures necessary to ensure his rank in the organization and heavenly martyrdom.

    Most of the violent street protesters where of that type. Usually from a poverty-ridden lower class. I am going to be accused of class chauvinism, but this is what I've so far have experienced.

    This generalization can be applied as a principle to the similar structured Diaspora's , like the Nazi and supremacist organizations who similarly structured and operated.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

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