User Tag List

View Poll Results: Keirseyan type and equality preference; which kind of equality do you favor?

Voters
31. You may not vote on this poll
  • NT and favor equal opportunity

    12 38.71%
  • NF and favor equal opportunity

    9 29.03%
  • SP and favor equal opportunity

    4 12.90%
  • SJ and favor equal opportunity

    3 9.68%
  • NT and favor equality of outcome

    2 6.45%
  • NF and favor equality of outcome

    0 0%
  • SP and favor equality of outcome

    1 3.23%
  • SJ and favor equality of outcome

    0 0%
First 123 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 21

  1. #11
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,630

    Default

    I favour the radical equality of novels such as Looking Backward, I'd say that properly understood most of the classical economists in their thinking believed that political economy would approximate more closely to equality of out come than equality of opportunity to be honest.

    I think that the triumphing of opportunity over outcome has been more and more the hallmark of a status quo and establishment who are anxious to protect their wealth come what may and future be damned.

  2. #12
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    MBTI
    eNtp
    Enneagram
    3w4 sp/sx
    Socionics
    γ Ni
    Posts
    4,189

    Default

    Equal outcome? No.

    Try to give resources they need to reach their full potential, then let them land where they're going to land.

    I use a pretty general meaning for "resources," here.

    "Here, have a fish" is different from
    "Here, have a fishing pole" which is different from
    "Let me educate you on how to find things, such as fishing poles." which is different from
    "Let me educate you on how you can learn things yourself, such as how you can go out and learn how to find things, then use that knowledge to find things such as fishing poles." which is different from
    "Let me provide a pretty good, solid foundation with which you can seek out education on how to learn things in the first place, such as finding things; then using that knowledge to find things such as fishing poles."

    The last of these is a pretty good threshold.


    ... and all of those are different from

    "Here, just sit on that couch, and I'll drop little soft bites of fish in your mouth."
    J. Scott Crothers
    aka "Bush Did 9/11"
    Founder, Truthtology, est. 1952
    Prophet and Channel, God Almighty
    Author, the Holy scripture Elevenetics

    "Just as jet fuel cannot melt steel beams, so too cannot the unshakeable pillars of Truthtology ever be shaken, whether by man, nature, or evidence."
    - Elevenetics

  3. #13
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,556

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    I dont think perfectly equal outcome would be a good thing, because some jobs require longer education(which means loss of income from the years of extra studying), require more work hours, more responsibility, are harder work overall etc. But i think extreme differences are bad(sadly those right wing fuckers are trying to ruin my country with this bullshit).
    I read somewhere that, when Golda Meir was prime minister of Israel, the janitor in her office building earned more than she did because he had 6 children at home to support, but her children were all grown and on their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by jscrothers View Post
    "Here, have a fish" is different from
    "Here, have a fishing pole" which is different from
    "Let me educate you on how to find things, such as fishing poles." which is different from
    "Let me educate you on how you can learn things yourself, such as how you can go out and learn how to find things, then use that knowledge to find things such as fishing poles." which is different from
    "Let me provide a pretty good, solid foundation with which you can seek out education on how to learn things in the first place, such as finding things; then using that knowledge to find things such as fishing poles."

    The last of these is a pretty good threshold.
    The problem with this is that it takes time to develop that solid foundation and then apply it to teaching yourself how to find a fishing pole and figure out how to fish and actually start catching fish. Meanwhile you are still hungry and have nothing to eat, so instead of investing your time and energy learning for the future, you are forced to use it scavenging for food.

    As INTP wrote, neither goal is reachable. We should at least, however, strive for equal opportunity. It has been suggested that this requires greater equality of outcomes than we have now. Perhaps, but we are looking at it from the wrong end. To contine with the fishing and learning analogy, that "pretty good, solid foundation" should be the education we receive as children. Children should not be expected to do their own fishing or fishing pole finding while developing that foundation, though they can certainly carry a grown-up's tackle box and help clean the fish.

    To step out of the metaphor, this means not so much equality of outcome as equality of starting conditions, at least where children are concerned. If every child has his/her basic needs met and access to education and job opportunities on a relatively equal basis, then it is far more likely that his/her outcomes will result from effort, interest, and personal choices rather than external constraints and plain dumb luck. Not everyone wants to be a millionaire, but everyone should be able to have basic needs met for themselves and their children regardless of how much they work. This may seem scandalous, but after all even convicted felons get food, shelter, and basic medical attention. We should provide as much to those among us whose only crime is laziness or failure to apply themselves.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #14
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx
    Posts
    7,823

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I read somewhere that, when Golda Meir was prime minister of Israel, the janitor in her office building earned more than she did because he had 6 children at home to support, but her children were all grown and on their own.
    Sounds like a pretty crappy system if they dont verify this sort of stuff.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  5. #15
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    8,671

    Default

    I am not sure that people trully understand what this question really means.



    Equal income means that more ambitious people will get a lousy deal. I am ok with more equal income but not trully equal because that would not make any real sense at all.



    On the other hand there is a option of equal opportunity which is really much more complicated issue than it looks like. People tend to think about this in the scope of their own country and obviously this is very restriced view. For example the person that is the president in my country earns something like 5000$ a month and after rigid taxation that we have for this income this is reduced to 3000$. Locally that is still very very good income but on the other hand in some other country this would be considered very average income and perhaps even poverty. By definition each country is story for itself so this should not matter however the world has become one big city and all the economies are therefore merged. What means that relative differences in income have become absolute differences in income, especially since everyhing is for the most part related to oil price that serves as some sort of price standardization. What means that we would probably have to dissolve all national economies and have one currency so that we make our job of building "equal opportunity" much more easier. Every time currencies go up and down that would cause inequality.



    On the other hand there is one deep problem with all equality that is comming out of how the reality is designed. This problem is that resources and various types of resources are not scattered equality around the world. Clean water, soil, fish, millions of types of ore, fossil fules ... etc are all scattered differently around the world and that is exaclty why we have constant wars and various forums of colonialism. In other words there is a constant struggle for resources and this is because resources are what makes you trully rich (money is just a byproduct of actual physical resources). Plus there is a fact that not all resources are equally valued all the time. What means that in order to make trully equal opportunity you would need to ban capitalism altogather since the only way that everyone has equal opportunity is to have equal access to resources and that is not possible to achive through trade. Therefore if there is no trade or money should what you get still be called income ? I am not sure.

    Extra problem is that even if everybody gets equal shares that still does not mean that they will get enough for normal life as the world population continues to grow. What again adds another layer to the problem because families with more children would probably be more succesful in hoarding resources and trading/exchanging them for something else. Therefore the amount of children has to be regualted as well.
    What in the end no matter how idealitic you are opend the question "Would you really want to live in this world? "



    None the less it is surely possible to build at least somewhat more fair world. It will not be perfect but it should be somewhat more fair.

  6. #16
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,595

    Default

    I favor equal opportunity that starts at the root of the problem. You give one demographic the best possible education and another demographic a dangerous environment with poor nutrition and left-over education with few resources, you have an unequal outcome. Or even with genders, you tell one gender for a lifetime they are smart at X, Y, and Z and laugh at the other for attempting those same tasks and you get different outcomes.

    At the job search level we try to again equalize opportunity, but true equality occurs from infancy.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)
    Likes asynartetic, SearchingforPeace liked this post

  7. #17
    Sheep pill, broster asynartetic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    10,069

    Default

    Equal-opportunity.

  8. #18
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,805

    Default

    It depends on the situation. Generally, I'm in favor of equal opportunity. When it comes to people with disabilities I'm in favor of equal outcome (as long as that is reasonably defined) especially in the case of children with disabilities. There's possibly other areas where I would favor outcome particularly where it deals with the root of the inequality and in a sense tries to push the person up with resources and programs to the outcome instead of just pulling them up by, for instance, throwing cash at the individual. But really, the private sector does this much better than the government.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #19
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    MBTI
    eNtp
    Enneagram
    3w4 sp/sx
    Socionics
    γ Ni
    Posts
    4,189

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    To contine with the fishing and learning analogy, that "pretty good, solid foundation" should be the education we receive as children. Children should not be expected to do their own fishing or fishing pole finding while developing that foundation, though they can certainly carry a grown-up's tackle box and help clean the fish.
    Apprenticeships or co-ops of sorts as a component of education. I like it.
    J. Scott Crothers
    aka "Bush Did 9/11"
    Founder, Truthtology, est. 1952
    Prophet and Channel, God Almighty
    Author, the Holy scripture Elevenetics

    "Just as jet fuel cannot melt steel beams, so too cannot the unshakeable pillars of Truthtology ever be shaken, whether by man, nature, or evidence."
    - Elevenetics

  10. #20
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    4,338

    Default

    Equal outcomes is a government quota and nothing else.

Similar Threads

  1. Do men & women of the same 'type' have equal outcomes?
    By LovecraftianMonstrosity in forum Intertype Relations
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 05-07-2016, 02:20 AM
  2. Eloquence or Equality?
    By Survive & Stay Free in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12-08-2009, 10:03 PM
  3. Equality: Is the basis moral, practical, or both?
    By Athenian200 in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 11-16-2009, 05:33 PM
  4. Equality or enhancement?
    By Magic Poriferan in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 01-27-2008, 09:34 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO