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  1. #21
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Here exactly is the sort of thinking that keeps us segregated. I don't care what other people rank Koreans as, they beat the shit out of their soldiers. Israeli people can have their segregation, I don't WANT it. I want the OPPOSITE. And I know there are men out there that genuinely appreciate working with us side by side. My squad was tight, we did a great job, got people there safely, and it had NOTHING to do with our gender. It had everything to do with us ALL being EQUAL soldiers and doing our part. It's all the bullshit outside of our work we're bombarded with that distracts us SO much more than a little fucking flirting.
    ah okay cool. I know what u mean by the outside BS kind of stuff. even relate to having to do more to have the same equality of chance. i just imagine that there are some women who want to be in all women units. but from what i read so far here, i guess some women want to also try to "un-chauvanize" some of the guys in the military. all interesting stuff to read about... personally, i don't really care that much about this issue. I just naively thought it was something no one considered to have all guy all girl units. LOL

  2. #22
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomadic View Post
    I always thought it is best to have all female units, and all male units.

    Thats how the Israeli and Korean marines do it. And they are ranked as some of the best in the world.
    I'm not so keen on the idea of separate units according to gender, like I said in my previous post I don't have many issues in a unit that has a fairly even split between male and female, but in the units/corps that are male only I do see issues. Maybe there is more efficiency in the Israeli and Korean military as a result of gender segregation, never really looked into it, but I enjoy working with men and have no major issue proving myself to my colleagues or having different standards as it just pushes me harder and I know I can meet them.

    There are fair arguments for and against but my personal view is I like working with both men and women and most of the people in my corp who have expressed a view on the topic suggest the same, generally those who disagree are the men from units that women are not allowed or those who are one of the 'good old boys' from way back when.

    One of the problems I do have is the poorest performing woman is often seen as representative of women in general and an argument against their presence, rather than just being seen as a poor peforming soldier like any guy would be. There are some people who make it into the military through no apparent skills or intellect of their own, I hate it when that person is a women cause it makes all of us look bad. /side tangent rant


    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    As soon as I heard this General's idea to punish pregnancy, I knew it wouldn't go through. Just bringing the idea up was enough to hurt their public relations.

    They were smart to "abort" this.
    Definitely bad for PR.

  3. #23
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I don't know about Korea, but in Israel military service is required for most citizens, male or female, and the government has to be very conscious of religious practices that include gender segregation. It makes sense for them from that perspective. I'm not sure it makes sense for the US.

    Edit: I also don't think the military should be exempt from the kinds of discrimination laws that the private sector is held to, especially since they are government entities.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #24
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Edit: I also don't think the military should be exempt from the kinds of discrimination laws that the private sector is held to, especially since they are government entities.
    Taking into consideration everyone who joins the military is expected to handle a firearm and be prepared to enter a combat zone, what about discriminating against someone with a mental or medical problem, or a criminal history, or previous drug and/or alcohol dependence?

    One of the first things I was told when I was joining, is that the military (and police force for that matter) is not an equal opportunity employer, they will discriminate and it is legal, there are forms of discrimination I don't agree with, such as 'don't ask don't tell... or we'll kick you out for gay soldiers, because being gay does not infringe on their ability to peform their duties, but there are forms that truly are necessary.

    They are a government entity but the consequences of not being able to do your job or handle the situation can have way more dire results than being in an office shuffling paperwork. It is literally a matter of life and death.

  5. #25
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Taking into consideration everyone who joins the military is expected to handle a firearm and be prepared to enter a combat zone, what about discriminating against someone with a mental or medical problem, or a criminal history, or previous drug and/or alcohol dependence?

    One of the first things I was told when I was joining, is that the military (and police force for that matter) is not an equal opportunity employer, they will discriminate and it is legal, there are forms of discrimination I don't agree with, such as 'don't ask don't tell... or we'll kick you out for gay soldiers, because being gay does not infringe on their ability to peform their duties, but there are forms that truly are necessary.

    They are a government entity but the consequences of not being able to do your job or handle the situation can have way more dire results than being in an office shuffling paperwork. It is literally a matter of life and death.
    If you are physically/mentally/emotionally, etc unable to do the job they shouldn't be hired/kept on. I don't think employers are expected to hire or keep people who can't actually do the job. Private sector employers do drug testing and fire people for not doing/being able to do their jobs all the time.

    It's when someone who is able to do the job but is not given the opportunity or they are treated differently based on gender/race/religion/sexual pref, etc that I think there is a problem. It's also just crazy to me that male soldiers can go around impregnating civilians without fear of consequence while female soldiers have to pretend to be asexual and aren't even given adequate access to birth control.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #26
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't know about Korea, but in Israel military service is required for most citizens, male or female, and the government has to be very conscious of religious practices that include gender segregation. It makes sense for them from that perspective. I'm not sure it makes sense for the US.
    For men in Korea, military service is mandatory for all men. Actually I was mistaken, the seperate women's branch in the Korean military was abolished 20 or so years ago and women are now allowed into every branch of the Korean military even the infantry. But yeah, I was wrong, I guess it is not segregated.

    I have no idea if this is interesting to anyone, but this article had some opinion polls done.

    http://kida.re.kr/data/2006/04/13/10_dohkgoh.pdf

    On page 9, it does a breakdown of men's opinions and women's opinions of how competent women are in the military. It seems for the most part, 70-80% of men believe that women are not inferior if given opportunities to exhibit their abilities.

  7. #27
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    It's when someone who is able to do the job but is not given the opportunity or they are treated differently based on gender/race/religion/sexual pref, etc that I think there is a problem. It's also just crazy to me that male soldiers can go around impregnating civilians without fear of consequence while female soldiers have to pretend to be asexual and aren't even given adequate access to birth control.
    Kay, I'm with ya now. I'm pretty sure the US Military (and ours) can't discriminate based on race or religion, so long as the religious requirements can fit in with military requirements (ie it's not always an option to stop work to go and pray) and they are have citizenship there shouldn't be any issue there, now anyway.

    I completely agree that sexual preference shouldn't be discriminated against and I hope that changes soon, both here and in the States.

    I also agree that gender shouldn't be a reason to discriminate, I'm all for women in combat roles, that one may take longer though.

    As for men being given a free pass to get civilians pregnant, I'm pretty sure they have the same 'rules and regulations' it's just the attitude towards it that's different. If they are given a free pass where a woman wouldn't be it's because their superiors' turn a blind eye, a blind eye can't be turned when it's a female soldier that's pregnant so who's to know if the same superior would turn a blind eye or if their actions are based on sexist beliefs.

    Not being given access to birth control is completely stupid, but so long as the rule is 'no fraternisation' I guess they want to kid themselves that no hanky panky will happen, I think that stance is just asking for trouble.

  8. #28
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I love the discussion that's occured in the thread so far. And awesome to see the Korean army has female infantry members.

    It still makes me think on how long it will be before people realize that things they don't want to happen are going to, and they need to hope for the best, and prepare for the worst. I think the military, of anything, should have this sort of mentality.. and yet it seems to be yet again a case of culture. It's just too convenient for them to continue things the way they are.
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