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  1. #21
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomadic View Post
    I understand what happened and how it happened.

    Im talking about people's attitude looking back on what happened.

    Everyone was in on it for the most part. Knowing this will lead us to the right solution going forward. To say "there is no way we could have seen it coming" is just not the right attitude IMO. Because it is CLEARLY not true, and KNOWINGLY believing in lies was a big part of this crisis in the first place.
    Neither you nor anyone else can make a statement as to what happened in the recent financial crisis as far as retrospective consumer views and behaviors that applies to ALL people. Who is WE as you state it? I think you are oversimplifying the whole situation, but if it works for you then go with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Sure, we honestly believe we can communicate or make money in the market by thinking a certain way - but we are wrong.

    Frankly, it is not a moral question of being honest with oneself or dishonest with oneself - it is far worse, it is a mistake in thinking.

    I guess the problem you and I have, Nomadic, is that I am saying you are repeating a mistake in thinking, but you don't want to hear this, you just want to keep on making the mistake.

    The definition of madness is to keep on doing the same thing and hoping each time for a different result.

    And the reason you keep on making the same mistake over and over is that you want to feel you are a moral person, and even worse, you want to be seen as a moral person.

    But the only result is absurdity.
    Victor, this is my favorite of any of your responses in recent history. Great post.

    Quote Originally Posted by nomadic View Post
    ^ No, my point is to solve the problem. Im not talking about making money on a bet in the market. Im actually not trading at the moment and have not been for a few months now. We are talking about two different things here.
    OK, please tell us how to solve the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    You make a serious error in thinking. You state the "regulation" was the problem; you should have discriminated and claimed this particular regulation failed. This does not assume that other, differing types of regulation will fail (although it just might).

    Sloppy thinking.

    I see what Jenocyde is saying, and will admit the wording of the statement of mine that she responded to was summarized and incomplete to speak to the issue as a whole, but I also see your point here Banantrombones.

    I think the whole CDE fiasco was utter bullshit. The fact that repaying foreign investors via our precious $800 billion bailout is even sicker. Those investors assumed RISK by buying into something other than a T-BILL. If the damn CDEs blew up, then fuck it, the people (or governments) who bought them should have to suck it up just like the people who bought Enron stock in the past or who lost their asses in in other investments. RISK is ASSUMED in INVESTING, but the American government is selectively holding certain insiders harmless from assumption of risk as part of this B.S. bailout program.
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  2. #22
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I should even say that's it's rather the lack or the absence of proper regulation that led to this crisis...

    I will always wonder why so many Americans are always so eager to blame their government for all the wrongs they have to endure, just like if it was a reflex action. It probably is an ideological trait.
    I don't know if it's blame per se, but more of a general sense of distrust in its ability to do anything right. I have no idea if this sentiment is shared anywhere else. But where I live [the northeast] this idea that the government resembles a bunch of retards with a potato gun is pretty rampant.



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I should even say that's it's rather the lack or the absence of proper regulation that led to this crisis...

    I will always wonder why so many Americans are always so eager to blame their government for all the wrongs they have to endure, just like if it was a reflex action. It probably is an ideological trait.
    My guess is it's a parody of the traditional American beliefs in individual liberty and independence from the government.

  4. #24
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I should even say that's it's rather the lack or the absence of proper regulation that led to this crisis...

    I will always wonder why so many Americans are always so eager to blame their government for all the wrongs they have to endure, just like if it was a reflex action. It probably is an ideological trait.
    Absolutely. The argument that "regulation didn't work on such-and-such occassion - ergo all regulation is pointless" is continually wheeled out, despite having zero merit as an argument against regulation.

    Clearly some regulation works very well and some doesn't.

  5. #25
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I should even say that's it's rather the lack or the absence of proper regulation that led to this crisis...

    I will always wonder why so many Americans are always so eager to blame their government for all the wrongs they have to endure, just like if it was a reflex action. It probably is an ideological trait.
    I don't think I ever blamed any government for any of my problems. I was just disagreeing with the amount of regulation in our private markets. I will agree that the regulation wasn't "proper". Whether we should have no regulation or "proper" regulation is debatable.

    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    You make a serious error in thinking. You state the "regulation" was the problem; you should have discriminated and claimed this particular regulation failed. This does not assume that other, differing types of regulation will fail (although it just might).

    Sloppy thinking.

    No, it was not sloppy thinking. I used one example, but this does not assume that there aren't countless others. And by just stating that you disagree with me does not make my thinking sloppy, rather your argument sloppy. Try again.



    What regulation do you think is needed, what do you think we should have had and who do you think should be in charge of regulating? Do you believe that the government should regulate all financial sectors or just the financial one?

    Quote Originally Posted by nomadic View Post
    hmm interesting. that does sound right... i guess it does not apply to a lot of people to think retroactively in the first place...
    Well, no one can think retroactively, but they can think ahead.

    yeah, but I don't think these banks will start lending until they get these bad mortgages off their books. Man, which makes it even more difficult now to know what the right thing to do is...
    The solution would be to work with the people owing the money in a reasonable way. Throwing everyone out onto the streets will compound us more. If they want to get their money back, then allow people to refinance and make monthly payments within their ranges. This will help everyone, as a whole, I think. But who really knows.

  6. #26
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    What I knew was this: you could get an appraiser to say your house was worth quite a bit more than it was and refinance for cash back. That was about the only way some people could pay for needed home repairs because the employment situation was so bad even a decade ago. Then, if you got behind on payments, the mortgage company would refuse to accept your payments in order to foreclose. Apparently they believed this would somehow profit them at least in the short-term or I'm assuming they wouldn't have done it. It made no sense to me since a lot of these people were upside down on the house to begin with and it's hard to get much out of a house that has been abandoned. I'm still not sure how this is supposed to make money. Does anyone know? Maybe it worked for them in areas that were not the rust belt?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  7. #27
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Victor, this is my favorite of any of your responses in recent history. Great post.
    I also loved Victor's post.


    I see what Jenocyde is saying, and will admit the wording of the statement of mine that she responded to was summarized and incomplete to speak to the issue as a whole, but I also see your point here Banantrombones.
    Yeah, Halla. I wasn't trying to trivialize your argument, I understood what you meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I don't know if it's blame per se, but more of a general sense of distrust in its ability to do anything right. I have no idea if this sentiment is shared anywhere else. But where I live [the northeast] this idea that the government resembles a bunch of retards with a potato gun is pretty rampant.
    Very true.

    As far as accusations that we blame the government - I personally don't, many others do. But I also don't make purchases that I can't afford. When I see victim mentalities all across Europe, particularly Germany and France, I find it laughable to throw such accusations at Americans. I think it's human nature, for the most part, not just American nature. I recognize it but I am not a part of it.

  8. #28
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    As far as accusations that we blame the government - I personally don't, many others do. But I also don't make purchases that I can't afford. When I see victim mentalities all across Europe, particularly Germany and France, I find it laughable to throw such accusations at Americans. I think it's human nature, for the most part, not just American nature. I recognize it but I am not a part of it.
    THIS! +1!!!
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  9. #29
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    What I knew was this: you could get an appraiser to say your house was worth quite a bit more than it was and refinance for cash back. That was about the only way some people could pay for needed home repairs because the employment situation was so bad even a decade ago. Then, if you got behind on payments, the mortgage company would refuse to accept your payments in order to foreclose. Apparently they believed this would somehow profit them at least in the short-term or I'm assuming they wouldn't have done it. It made no sense to me since a lot of these people were upside down on the house to begin with and it's hard to get much out of a house that has been abandoned. I'm still not sure how this is supposed to make money. Does anyone know? Maybe it worked for them in areas that were not the rust belt?
    a lot of these mortgage companies would sell their loans to loan buyers, and those loan buyers usually had so many loans in their books that they couldnt' look at each house and know how much they were really worth. so they probably had certain formulas that would automatically go into foreclosure if a few payments were missed, and the person who took out equity can walk away with some cash on hand. simple fact was that the person who held these loans eventually were not the same people who gave the loan out. so thats how a lot of those "scams" could come about at least.

  10. #30
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Neither you nor anyone else can make a statement as to what happened in the recent financial crisis as far as retrospective consumer views and behaviors that applies to ALL people. Who is WE as you state it? I think you are oversimplifying the whole situation, but if it works for you then go with it.
    Well, I clearly said that its wrong to say " No one knew that this financial crisis would happen". Clearly people did. I don't see how that statement can be oversimplifying the whole situation. Again, I am talking about this present moment of looking back to see what happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    The solution would be to work with the people owing the money in a reasonable way. Throwing everyone out onto the streets will compound us more. If they want to get their money back, then allow people to refinance and make monthly payments within their ranges. This will help everyone, as a whole, I think. But who really knows.
    u know america is the only country in the world where u can walk away from a foreclosure with no serious consequences? thats just crazy if u think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    OK, please tell us how to solve the problem.
    i just get annoyed when people recollect what happened in a disingenous way. while i understand a lot of it is the media and getting on people's minds in a certain way to make them buy the paper (no one's gonna want to read something that blames them), if I owned a paper or was a reporter, there's certain lines i wouldn't cross.

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