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Thread: Minimum Wage

  1. #11
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    California makes a poor economic decision?

    Shocking.



  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I don't think that's true, I haven't met any decent model of unemployment that doesn't depend at least quadratically from min. wage (first min. wage too low, opportunity cost of leisure is higher for the worker, then min. wage too high, opportunity cost of not producing is higher for the firm). Raising min. wage during a recession is just a populistic maneuver.
    I doubt it, if its unpopular with the people in this thread its not likely to be popular and lets think about it are the people who are posting here, with whom its unpopular, more likely to constitute the voting public than the people receiving minimum wage?

    This is what I think sucks about all the allegations of populism or socialism, there is no masses vs. the classes going on and if there were who are the politicians most likely to see themselves as belonging to, hardly the masses, they have more earning potential than them, dont go to the same clubs or eating houses, send their kids to the same schools.

  3. #13
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I doubt it, if its unpopular with the people in this thread its not likely to be popular and lets think about it are the people who are posting here, with whom its unpopular, more likely to constitute the voting public than the people receiving minimum wage?

    This is what I think sucks about all the allegations of populism or socialism, there is no masses vs. the classes going on and if there were who are the politicians most likely to see themselves as belonging to, hardly the masses, they have more earning potential than them, dont go to the same clubs or eating houses, send their kids to the same schools.
    Yeah, well, I didn't mean to imply the existence of a real social separation. I wanted to say "raising minimum wage is a measure aimed towards rising popularity in a certain segment of the electorate".
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yeah, well, I didn't mean to imply the existence of a real social separation. I wanted to say "raising minimum wage is a measure aimed towards rising popularity in a certain segment of the electorate".
    No, I understand what you're saying and its perfectly true in theory, you can reason your way to that point but is it so in practice?

    I mean were it true then from the inception of popular sovereignty in the form of universal sufferage and representative democracy then socialists or populists would have been perpetually in public office. Yet the greatest number of people seem to consistently vote against their interests.

  5. #15
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Maybe it would be inappropriate if the playing field was equal but clearly it isn't. The small business owners are hurt the most but it does alleviate a lot of pain temporarily in order to maintain a status.

    In other words the system we are in is essentially taxation without representation. The duel representation of state and central government is becoming more and more of a farce every decade since the end of the U.S. Civil War.

    Nowadays money is created without voter approval by unelected officials with the purpose of expropriating it to influential people/corporations/oligarchies (i.e. to "create" money out of nowhere i.e. the Fed/Tarp funds etc... in essence lower the value of the dollar) The minimum wage is a prophylactic with the ultimate purpose of preventing another revolution. (not an essentially minor one like the American Revolution but a serious such as the one like in France and Russia where many those in power not only temporarily fell out of power but also lost their money and many their lives or the lives of their loved ones)

    The reason the politicians tinker even more with the system is so in the short term they can both to pay off their special interests and to get more people (the masses) closer to a sustainable living wage (as they would have had in a pure free market, a non draconian criminal justice system and protected boarders) via albeit temporarily; the minimum wage.
    The minimum wage not only addresses the bare minimum but also has a tendency to raise wages in general. So in all reality people are not getting more money, the value of todays money is worth less. In time, however, services and then goods and rents adjust to the minimum wage to make it essentially worthless except as a way to distort public perception (inflation accurately reported or no).
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I think you're right, every successful economy in the world today is an oligarchy and an oligarchy in which they can act in partnership with a class of professional politicians in a form of dynastic rule.

    I dont think that there is any satisfying of interest groups going on here at all, the people who work for minimum wage dont vote or politically organise like the middle classes who are hostile towards minimum wages, especially not so in the US.

    Its all about keeping the economy on life support by circulating the money and that's all about serving the interests of the top one percent of oligarchs who work in partnership with the political dynasties.

    Classic elitism and who cares about the small businesses or plumber Joes because, to be honest, both of the ruling parties think plumber Joe should face reality that he's not feasible in their new business reality and sign on with the public or private corporations or become a claimant.

  7. #17
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its all about keeping the economy on life support by circulating the money
    How does rising minimum wage during a recession help them?
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  8. #18
    Senior Member JHBowden's Avatar
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    How does rising minimum wage during a recession help them?
    How does it help ever?

    I drive a 1995 Mitsubishi Mirage with about 315K miles on it. Suppose I'm having difficulty selling it at $2,500, and buyers are purchasing similar clunker vehicles for $1,500. Using the reasoning of mental giants such as Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, or Barack Obama, we could help me out by making it illegal for me to sell my car for any amount less than $8,000 dollars. Which is absurd -- if anything, this makes it more difficult to sell my automobile! If I have no buyers at $2,500, why would I have any buyers at $8,000? (IRL my automobile is not for sale at the moment. )

    The same reasoning applies to labor. We don't make it easier for people to get hired by making their skills more expensive, that is, by making it illegal for people to sell their labor under a specific wage.

    Circulating money is easy -- just print it! But that is not the point of economic activity. We ought not to lose sight of the free movement of goods and services.
    Last edited by JHBowden; 12-23-2009 at 02:50 PM. Reason: typos

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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    How does rising minimum wage during a recession help them?
    It would be relative because we're talking about people whose lifestyle knows no limits and whose wealth multiples all by itself without any effort or anything else being expended.

    There's a two fold reason, dont circulate the money and the economy shrinks, employment and prospects of employment disappear and purchasing power is curtailed, for reasons of economy everyone refuses to buy anything from anyone else.

    Yeah, its possible to avoid the consequences of that for a long time but eventually those people could elect a tyrant who will run amok or they may even run amok themselves, that kind of thing is hard to avoid, even if you lived on some sort of self-sufficient estate.

    That's on the negative side. On the positive side, if the circulation of money continues the opportunities for expanding their own personal wealth bases continue year on year as they always have.

  10. #20
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHBowden View Post
    How does it help ever?

    I drive a 1995 Mitsubishi Mirage with about 315K miles on it. Suppose I'm having difficulty selling it at $2,500, and buyers are purchasing similar clunker vehicles for $1,500. Using the reasoning of mental giants such as Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, or Barack Obama, we could help me out be making it illegal for me to sell my car for any amount less than $8,000 dollars. Which is absurd -- if anything, this makes it more difficult to sell my automobile! (My automobile is not for sale at the moment. )

    The same reasoning applies to labor. We don't make it easier for people to get hired by making their skills more expensive, that is, by making it illegal for people to sell their labor under a specific wage.

    Circulating money is easy -- just print it! But that is not the point of economic activity. We ought not to lose sight of circulating the free movement of goods and services-- we can't choke the air supply and expect the organism to breathe.
    Humans aren't cars, that's why legislation imposes a minimum wage - because a modern society, created by humans, is generally supposed to afford at least the survival of its members - I'm not familiar with the US constitution, however in Italy the right to afford eating+sleeping inside is one of the consitutional principles. It can help in situations of extreme inequality. Why? I don't mean to say that those with better skills shouldn't be compensated, however they should take into account the possibility of violent revolution from those that lack the skills to afford eating+sleeping in a given society.

    Anyway, I didn't want to support a socialistic standing on the issue, since my main point was that IF a rise in minimum wage might help in some cases, it will NEVER help during a recession. Thus, I agree completely with the last part of your post - if the supposed "ruling class" was exclusively interested in amping up the total amount of circulating money, they would indirectly ask the FED to print more (and that's exactly what ibanks did 1 year ago); much easier than trying to modify the velocity parameter by means of rising the min. wage

    There's a two fold reason, dont circulate the money and the economy shrinks, employment and prospects of employment disappear and purchasing power is curtailed, for reasons of economy everyone refuses to buy anything from anyone else.
    Mmm. But most data points towards employment (and, thus, circulation of money as you mean it - I suppose you're inferring from the higher propensity to consume of people with relatively lower income) being a quadratic function of min. wage, so there is no guarantee that rising minimum wage will not simply lead to widespread cutoffs, given that in a recession we will very likely be above equilibrium.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

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