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  1. #61
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Ideology killed ~150 million this past century.
    That refutes Mill how exactly?

  2. #62
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    It's all based upon your perception of a hero.

    I think that every troop that goes over to a foreign country to risk their life is a hero. It is a courageous act, no matter what for, and should be respected by us people who sit safely in our offices and computer rooms. Have some pride in knowing that people risk their lives. It's not for you, most soldiers don't do it for pride in their country, but nonetheless.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  3. #63
    in-game Gamine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Ideology killed ~150 million this past century.
    This is about whether or not we define soldiers as heroes because they agree to put themselves in these possible situations. How do you define a hero? Does it rely on ideology?
    "Beware Those Who Are ALWAYS READING BOOKS" - Bukowski

  4. #64
    Head Pigeon Mad Hatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Well it did stop Iraq from using chemical and biological weapons in the first Gulf War, since we threatened nuclear retailiation.
    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Iraq was a war of volition. That war doesn't happen unless the US wants it to happen. That's also called aggression.
    Agreed to both posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamine View Post
    Then I greatly encourage you to start a thread asking that very question Avis, it is very valid. That is not the question in this OP however. Let me know if you do, I look forward to reading it.
    Well, in a sense I already have answered in a previous post - if one insists on the word "necessarily", then: No.
    In the post you've quoted I just wanted to make it explicit that the also the individual soldier is responsible.
    Since the word "hero" has a stongly positive connotation (in the moral sense) and morality is closely tied to acting out of one's own volition, the question is fundamental - and I know I haven't answered that question yet.
    I'm willing to elaborate, but I'm already a bit tired.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamine View Post
    What do you think about the bravery of inaction? Is it ethical to choose to have no military support of defence in a world filled with others stockpiling their resources? (Weaponry, personnel, otherwise)
    Again, no. All I can say for now is that I can see that wars can be necessary - to put it bluntly, it's either "No more war!" or "No more Auschwitz". I think the war in former Yugoslavia made that very clear.
    I hope this answers at least a part of your question (though admittedly it's more about preventing a humanitarian catastrophy than forestalling foreign aggression)
    Until then, good night to y'all, and keep the discussion going
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

    -τὸ γὰρ γράμμα ἀποκτέννει, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζῳοποιεῖ-

  5. #65
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    So we're talking Vikings raiding monasteries, the Iraqi Republican guard, Nazi soldiers, American soldiers that rounded up Native Americans for the reservations?

    I'm kinda not seeing some of the heroism here . . .
    You're right. I heard that many firefighters steal from the houses they are called to save, so clearly they aren't heroes either. And Lincoln was a member of the American Colonization Society, so ixnay on the erohsay there as well. Martin Luther King was too scared to join the Freedom Riders on the buses, the coward. Hey, it's fun and easy to poke holes in heroes!

    Then again, setting aside the exceptions, the dissonance, and the wrong causes, I'll continue to think of soldiers as heroes. At least they aren't so self-righteous as to believe that they alone can determine what is a just mission, and what is an unjust mission.

  6. #66
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That refutes Mill how exactly?
    Ideology is "fighting for something you believe in". He's promoting war over ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamine View Post
    This is about whether or not we define soldiers as heroes because they agree to put themselves in these possible situations. How do you define a hero? Does it rely on ideology?
    No. A hero is a person who sacrifices himself for the benefit of others. Those who fight in wars of aggression are not automatically heroes. Those who sacrifice themselves to make sure their fellow soldiers get to see their families again, regardless of what side they are, truly are heroes.

    For example, the first responders at the WTC were true heroes.

  7. #67
    Reptilian Snuggletron's Avatar
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    They're not heroes because of their profession. It's just a job like any other. I realize just because you are a soldier doesn't always mean you're out shooting at other soldiers with guns, but besides that they're effectively a tool for your rulers to use how they like--which may involve violence, and that is normally a no no. I can't really make that sound nicer. They're not defending your freedom (that you somehow can't earn without them), and they're not heroes if they are selected for combat and given a gun to use while they're put into dangerous situations. All of this support the troops stuff...what about supporting the librarians? the bag boys? the teachers? the trashmen? How is any profession more deserving of attention and a yellow ribbon than the other? Because they place themselves at more risk?

    Although it should be said when you have any job with a boss you're a tool. So we're all tools at some point. I don't mean it any other way than functionally that is basically what you become when you work for someone.

  8. #68
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adoamros View Post
    They're not heroes because of their profession. It's just a job like anything other.
    SOUNDS LIKE SOMEBODY DOESN'T SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!!!!!
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #69
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Ideology is "fighting for something you believe in". He's promoting war over ideology.
    Ideology is a certain kind of body of ideas, which didn't exist before the early 19th century. Wars have been occuring since time began. You're confusing ideology with principles.

    Are we to take it that you deny that certain principles are worth fighting and dying for?

  10. #70
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adoamros View Post
    They're not heroes because of their profession. It's just a job like anything other.
    Right. They are paid professionals, not martyrs.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

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