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  1. #201
    it's tea time! Walking Tourist's Avatar
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    The worse the economy is, the more likely people are to join the military. Right now, the unemployment rate in the United States is over ten percent, which is high.
    Also, another reason that people would join the military is lack of options. I remember one experience that I had on the "subway" in Buffalo. A woman told me that she had just taken her son to the marine recruiter so that he could enlist. "Oh," I said, dubiously, expressing the idea that, during wartime, taking one's son to the marine recruiter may not be a very good idea. I did not say anything to the woman about the idea that she might end up without a son. The woman responded, "It's better for him than being on the street."
    Drugs. Gangs. Drive by shootings.
    The kid was already living in a war zone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizy View Post
    In my experience most soldiers do not join the military for reasons of patriotism or heroism. Mostly they just graduate highschool (or not), and decide that the military is a steady and (interesting?) job. The perception of heroism and the public adoration come with the job.

    Certainly each soldier has their own personal reasons for joining, and it definitely isn't my place to paint them with a broad brush. However I don't think that simply joining the military makes one a hero by default.

    Personally I have a jaded view of basically all areas of public service (police, fire, military) which I'm sure affects my opinion.
    I'm a little teapot, short and stout. Here is my handle and here is my spout. Every time I steam up, I give a shout. Just tip me over and pour me out.

  2. #202
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    I think that her name was Jessica Lynch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It turns out she was well treated by the enemy and soon returned.

    It was all propaganda. And it was good propaganda because it was plausible. And it was plausible because it was what we wanted to hear.

    And it was so plausible, we keep on repeating this propaganda to this very day.

    Propaganda rules OK - always remembering that propaganda is neither true nor false but plausible or implausible. And the first mistake of apprentice propagandists is to believe their own propaganda.

    But hey, we wouldn't make that mistake, would we?
    I'm a little teapot, short and stout. Here is my handle and here is my spout. Every time I steam up, I give a shout. Just tip me over and pour me out.

  3. #203
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont think that blind obedience is commendable, its not heroic, by this token you'd have to award medals to the camp wardens in death camps in Germany, Bosnia, Rwanda or any place or time else.

    I appreciate the point you are trying to make though.
    It might be when you've voluntarily sworn an oath to blindly obey. You don't swear an oath to obey whenever you feel like it. That's not how war works.

    You people don't seem to realize that joining the military is making a conscious decision to give up moral authority over your actions on the battlefield.

    We can't have soldiers running around ignoring orders arbitrarily because "boo hoo I feel bad about it." If you can't deal with being ordered to kill innocent people, don't join the military.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    It might be when you've voluntarily sworn an oath to blindly obey. You don't swear an oath to obey whenever you feel like it. That's not how war works.

    You people don't seem to realize that joining the military is making a conscious decision to give up moral authority over your actions on the battlefield.

    We can't have soldiers running around ignoring orders arbitrarily because "boo hoo I feel bad about it." If you can't deal with being ordered to kill innocent people, don't join the military.
    Er?

    An order given to kill innocent people would be illegal and you would not have to follow it, it would contravene the rules of war, what you're describing isnt soldierly conduct its something else, not sure what but it sure isnt pleasant.

    I dont believe that joining the armed forces is about giving up moral authority and abdicating all decision making prowess or responsibility, like I said before that's the arguments of the "we were only following orders" Nazis at Nuremburg.

    Voluntarily or not if the military were how you describe it I'm afraid I'd be campaigning for the disbandment of all armed forces immediately as a clear and present danger to the liberty of all individuals foreign and domestic, it sounds like something on a par with rendering individuals psychotically compliant to authority. There's nothing honourable about that and its also ill shit.

  5. #205
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Er?

    An order given to kill innocent people would be illegal and you would not have to follow it, it would contravene the rules of war, what you're describing isnt soldierly conduct its something else, not sure what but it sure isnt pleasant.

    I dont believe that joining the armed forces is about giving up moral authority and abdicating all decision making prowess or responsibility, like I said before that's the arguments of the "we were only following orders" Nazis at Nuremburg.

    Voluntarily or not if the military were how you describe it I'm afraid I'd be campaigning for the disbandment of all armed forces immediately as a clear and present danger to the liberty of all individuals foreign and domestic, it sounds like something on a par with rendering individuals psychotically compliant to authority. There's nothing honourable about that and its also ill shit.
    So if I'm a pilot in the US air force and I'm ordered to bomb a target, I can refuse because I don't want to produce civilian casualties?

    The US military does have provisions in which you can disobey an order if it's in direct violation of the military's code of law; however, the death of innocent people is an unfortunate consequence of war. There's nothing in the US military law code that says you can disobey any order that may result in civilian casualties.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Dude, I have Fi too and you really are making fucking ridiculous statements.

    That's fine if you want laughs, but it doesn't work well in a serious political discussion, it just makes you look like an extremist kook.
    This is a serious political discussion? With an ENTP?

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    This is a serious political discussion? With an ENTP?
    Your avatar is made of win.

  8. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    So if I'm a pilot in the US air force and I'm ordered to bomb a target, I can refuse because I don't want to produce civilian casualties?

    The US military does have provisions in which you can disobey an order if it's in direct violation of the military's code of law; however, the death of innocent people is an unfortunate consequence of war. There's nothing in the US military law code that says you can disobey any order that may result in civilian casualties.
    I think there's a difference between collateral damage and deliberate genocide. Annihilation isnt a legitimate war aim, its why the US doesnt simply nuke or fuel bomb Afghanistan flat.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think there's a difference between collateral damage and deliberate genocide. Annihilation isnt a legitimate war aim, its why the US doesnt simply nuke or fuel bomb Afghanistan flat.
    Well, if ENTPs are running the show, it's simply because it would be bad PR

  10. #210
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    This is a serious political discussion? With an ENTP?
    I find it much harder to have political discussions with Fi doms who don't understand the basic problem with moral absolutism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think there's a difference between collateral damage and deliberate genocide. Annihilation isnt a legitimate war aim, its why the US doesnt simply nuke or fuel bomb Afghanistan flat.
    Well, fair point. At least US soldiers have a relatively easy way out of this dilemma because they have the right to refuse orders that violate military law (like not committing deliberate genocide.) But they didn't really have those rules in a fascist country like Nazi Germany, and refusal to obey orders would most likely result in your own death. If it's kill or be killed, does your moral opinion change?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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