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  1. #191
    Not Your Therapist Sinmara's Avatar
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    Some years ago, near the beginning of the war, there was a female soldier who was taken prisoner in Iraq or Afghanistan, I'm afraid I don't remember which. She was an engineer of some sort, not a combatant necessarily, and was driving herself and some other soldiers back to their base when they were ambushed. If memory serves, the others in her car were killed and she was taken prisoner.

    After a few days of torture, her location was verified and a rescue team was dispatched to bring her home. She had a few broken bones and was malnourished, not to mention traumatized.

    Her rescue was all over the news. The media praised her as a hero. That made me very, very angry.

    I have empathy for what happened to the woman. It was a horrible thing for her to go through but she was not a hero, she was just a techie soldier with little to no combat skills who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Heroes are people who go above and beyond and put themselves in danger for the sake of others. All she did was survive. While that takes admirable strength and willpower, that does not make her a hero, it makes her a survivor.

    Even she said she was not a hero and didn't like that people were praising her as such.

    I got into a heated argument with my parents (who are conservative republican and watch nothing but Fox News) over this because the media made her into an icon for the war and they bought into it. I told them an idiot soldier can trip and fall on his own knife and stab himself to death and the media would still have made him out to be some sort of hero because of their ridiculous military hero-worship. Oh, was that ever a bad argument.

    My opinion still hasn't changed.

  2. #192
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Soldiers have sworn an oath to obey orders from military superiors unconditionally. How can you condemn them ethically for doing their duty, just because you don't agree with the person handing out orders?
    An army without unquestioning obedience is like a brothel without any whores.

    Nuremberg Trials Project -- Introduction

    Problem is, if you're on the losing side they'll hang you.

  3. #193
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pettycure View Post
    Some years ago, near the beginning of the war, there was a [pretty] female soldier who was taken prisoner in Iraq or Afghanistan, I'm afraid I don't remember which. She was an engineer of some sort, not a combatant necessarily, and was driving herself and some other soldiers back to their base when they were ambushed. If memory serves, the others in her car were killed and she was taken prisoner.

    After a few days of torture, her location was verified and a rescue team was dispatched to bring her home. She had a few broken bones and was malnourished, not to mention traumatized.
    It turns out she was well treated by the enemy and soon returned.

    It was all propaganda. And it was good propaganda because it was plausible. And it was plausible because it was what we wanted to hear.

    And it was so plausible, we keep on repeating this propaganda to this very day.

    Propaganda rules OK - always remembering that propaganda is neither true nor false but plausible or implausible. And the first mistake of apprentice propagandists is to believe their own propaganda.

    But hey, we wouldn't make that mistake, would we?

  4. #194
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Problem is, if you're on the losing side they'll hang you.
    And if you disobey an order in battle, they will shoot you.

    Catch 22.

  5. #195
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And if you disobey an order in battle, they will shoot you.
    In theory. So the dilemma is a theoretical one.

  6. #196
    Not Your Therapist Sinmara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It turns out she was well treated by the enemy and soon returned.

    It was all propaganda. And it was good propaganda because it was plausible. And it was plausible because it was what we wanted to hear.

    And it was so plausible, we keep on repeating this propaganda to this very day.

    Propaganda rules OK - always remembering that propaganda is neither true nor false but plausible or implausible. And the first mistake of apprentice propagandists is to believe their own propaganda.

    But hey, we wouldn't make that mistake, would we?
    Ah, thank you. I thought there was more to it but I couldn't remember. Do you happen to remember the name of the woman? I was trying to find an article or something so I didn't have to work from my admittedly crappy memory.

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  8. #198
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It turns out she was well treated by the enemy and soon returned.

    It was all propaganda. And it was good propaganda because it was plausible. And it was plausible because it was what we wanted to hear.

    And it was so plausible, we keep on repeating this propaganda to this very day.

    Propaganda rules OK - always remembering that propaganda is neither true nor false but plausible or implausible. And the first mistake of apprentice propagandists is to believe their own propaganda.

    But hey, we wouldn't make that mistake, would we?
    Yep, the Jessica Lynch fiasco was a complete farce. Goddamn Fox News.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And if you disobey an order in battle, they will shoot you.

    Catch 22.
    It's the best catch there is.

  9. #199
    Senior Member Nizy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Would this preclude them from an heroic action? An herioc action would, by definition, make them a hero. The initial motivation for joining up would be irrelevant.

    Hero is not what you is. It's what you does.

    The confusion is a confusion of language.
    I agree with you completely. Any soldier, regardless of their reason for joining the military, is capable of heroic action. I simply believe that most who join the military do not do so because they are looking for a chance to take those heroic actions, so to speak.
    Ti>Ne>Te>Ni>Se>Fe>Si>Fi

    "Sometimes life leaves a hundred dollar bill on your dresser, and you don't realize until later that it's because it fucked you."

  10. #200
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Soldiers have sworn an oath to obey orders from military superiors unconditionally. How can you condemn them ethically for doing their duty, just because you don't agree with the person handing out orders?
    whats heroic about obeying immoral orders?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

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