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  1. #11
    Head Pigeon Mad Hatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You dont ever have to attack legitimate authority. In fact failing to defend legitimate authority is a worse crime than tolerating illegitimate authority.
    That's why I think that the possibility to vote someone out of office is way more powerful than voting someone into office. That said, I'm well aware that the Italians had goofed up time and again when they had the chance to get rid of him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Ok...and what makes some authorities legitimate and others illegitimate? Italy is a real hallmark of legitimate governments, I'm sure.
    Democratic elections.
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

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  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    You brought up the legitimacy discrepancy, not me.
    What discrepancy? I'm sorry I'm not understanding you, from the quotes in your signature I suspect that you like word games and taking the position of the perrenial or popular opposition/anti-authoritarian stance but that's about all I can tell.

    I could as easily ask you what constitutes illegitimacy since you imply in your post that authority deserves to be attacked simply because it is or that it is illegitimate purely by virtue of it being at all.

  3. #13
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avis View Post
    Democratic elections.
    The mere presence of such a thing alone does not grant legitimacy.

    How much have you read about Mr. Burlesconi? If not much, I suggest you start.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #14
    Senior Member bighairything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Burlesconi's election itself is the absence of lawfulness. This doesn't accomplish anything, but I hate the guy, so I still take some pleasure in seeing him decked in the face.

  5. #15
    Head Pigeon Mad Hatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The mere presence of such a thing alone does not grant legitimacy.
    If the process goes along constitutional ways, it does. I just think that people here are confusing moral with legal categories. Also, his election and his conduct while in office are two different things.
    Of course, he controls the media, is an accomplished fraud with no respect for the legal system of the country whose head of government he is, uses both his dubiously accumulated wealth and tailor-made laws to evade prosecution, cracks silly and embarassing jokes all the time, is self-centered and can by no means be considered a respectable politician whatsoever.

    I just said that he was duly elected. No more, no less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    How much have you read about Mr. Burlesconi? If not much, I suggest you start.
    Quite a lot.
    As I've said, there were opportunities to get rid of him, time and again, and I can't believe the Italians botched every single one of them (even when they knew what to expect).
    Or is there evidence that the last elections were manipulated?

    "Burlesconi" ... I like that.
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

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  6. #16
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I could as easily ask you what constitutes illegitimacy since you imply in your post that authority deserves to be attacked simply because it is or that it is illegitimate purely by virtue of it being at all.
    I didn't imply that. I said sometimes. I really don't differentiate between legitimate and illegitimate governments. It simply can't be broken down that generally.

    Politics and government are about power, not moral correctness.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  7. #17
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avis View Post
    I just said that he was duly elected. No more, no less.
    So what are we supposed to make of this?


    Quote Originally Posted by Avis View Post
    Quite a lot.
    As I've said, there were opportunities to get rid of him, time and again, and I can't believe the Italians botched every single one of them (even when they knew what to expect).
    Or is there evidence that the last elections were manipulated?
    To some extents, the apparently idiotic decisions of a voting population can in fact be a sign of how they were deceived. But yes, the voters make mistakes. I say better later than never to correct a mistake.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #18
    Head Pigeon Mad Hatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    So what are we supposed to make of this?
    Just taking note of it.
    At its core, I think the question is whether to oppose system as a whole or only one of its representatives. I'd say that the system is essentially flawed (38 governments since 1946). I want to acknowledge that there's a disctinction between the process per se, which wasn't flawed. It was a due election in an essentially flawed system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    To some extents, the apparently idiotic decisions of a voting population can in fact be a sign of how they were deceived. But yes, the voters make mistakes. I say better later than never to correct a mistake.
    100% agree on the whole problematics of media influence, which doesn't allow for a truly unbiased discussion. Add to that a discordant and clumsy opposition.
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

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  9. #19
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I didn't imply that. I said sometimes. I really don't differentiate between legitimate and illegitimate governments. It simply can't be broken down that generally.

    Politics and government are about power, not moral correctness.
    I dont see power and moral correctness as a dichotomy, although given that you're a fan of Nietzsche I'm not surprised you might.

    If you dont differentiate between legit and illegit governments, then all you can do is generalise or worse still muse, without ever reaching a conclusion because the minute you rest upon an opinion you've committed the cardinal sin of constructing an absolute or adopting a "fable agreed upon". Which is, thankfully not how people live their lives in practice, even if philosophers and abstract reasoners muse that way.

    I dont see how its possible to say that "sometimes" you believe authority should be challenged without there being an implication that at some time authority is legit, therefore does not need to be fought, and at other times authority is illegit, therefore does need to be fought.

    Unless the issue is one of complete expediency, no authority should be fought until victory is assured but when this is feasible all authority is a fair target, although in deferrence to yourself I'll not jump to that conclusion.

  10. #20
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avis View Post
    Just taking note of it.
    At its core, I think the question is whether to oppose system as a whole or only one of its representatives. I'd say that the system is essentially flawed (38 governments since 1946). I want to acknowledge that there's a disctinction between the process per se, which wasn't flawed. It was a due election in an essentially flawed system.
    Corrupt government is everywhere, but boy is Italy a problem area. I remember Machiavelli lamenting this to great lengths in his discourses.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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