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  1. #31
    Senior Member Ethereal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Isaac View Post
    If I may expand on this- During the Bush administration, the use of contractors was pushed by the leftists as one of the detrimental aspects of the war. Hello? Now they are using them even more?

    They are plagiarizing the Republican War on Terror playbook (The Irony!) and a good part of the population is so ignorant, they do not notice this?
    I mentioned this in an earlier post how the anti-war left were at one-time one of the most significant movements in the country, but ever since Obama took office they have been completely neutralized.

    This is what is really pissing me off about the Peace Prize. To many of these ignorant people, him receiving the peace prize is a sign that he is really bringing peace, but in actuality he continuing the policies that have wrecked nations and strained the economy...

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    I believe that Kissinger and Arafat both had good intentions when they made the sacrifices they had to make to play the roles they chose to play. It's a massive responsibility without reasonable compensation. Could you have done a better job in any of their shoes?
    Yes. Thanks for asking.
    You might enjoy:The Case Against Henry Kissinger Part One by Christopher Hitchens

  3. #33
    Senior Member Ethereal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    I believe that Kissinger and Arafat both had good intentions when they made the sacrifices they had to make to play the roles they chose to play. It's a massive responsibility without reasonable compensation. Could you have done a better job in any of their shoes? Who are we to judge, with hindsight in our favour? Why be so quick to demonize good men who had the guts, will and determination to try and make life better for their people? They're not heaven-sent angels, but ordinary men.
    That's a good point. But did they really create peace. Kissinger received the peace prize for negotiating a ceasefire and US Withdrawal from the Vietnam war, but the ceasefire did not last. Neither did any peace negotiated between Yassar Arafat and PM Rabin last for too long, and they had both advocated violence, or at the very least permitted it, before-hand.

    But Obama did not negotiate any kind of peace. He has yet to have any significant accomplishments, and has been mongering more war than his predecessor. In an attempt to either curry U.S favor, influence U.S policy, or some other reason, the definition of peace has been skewed, and standards shafted...

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I mentioned this in an earlier post how the anti-war left were at one-time one of the most significant movements in the country, but ever since Obama took office they have been completely neutralized.
    They have neutralized themselves with their own cowardice, inconsistency and hypocrisy.

    Even as Obama dramatically escalates his wars in Afghanistan and Pakistan...

  5. #35
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    But Obama did not negotiate any kind of peace. He has yet to have any significant accomplishments, and has been mongering more war than his predecessor. In an attempt to either curry U.S favor, influence U.S policy, or some other reason, the definition of peace has been skewed, and standards shafted...
    I think Obama was more about rewarding the US voting demographic for voting to end to the Bush era and any legacy continuation of it.

    I mean, sure, Bush can do watever he wants to the US. We voted him in, or didn't stand up to voting irregularities whatever. So it is OUR FAULT. OUR PUNISHMENT. But he did affect the rest of the world so much, that really had no say in voting him in. Kind of like "Agitation without Representation"

    Did the Nobel Peace Prize become a relief award of angst from "Agitation without Representation"? Well, I can't blame them if it did. The only other real world changing event in 2008 was the financial crisis, Soviets invading Georgia, 2008 China olympics. What other candidates were there?

  6. #36

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    Here's an excerpt from the will of Alfred Nobel himself.

    "The whole of my remaining realizable estate shall be dealt with in the following way: the capital, invested in safe securities by my executors, shall constitute a fund, the interest on which shall be annually distributed in the form of prizes to those who, during the preceding year, shall have conferred the greatest benefit on mankind. The said interest shall be divided into five equal parts, which shall be apportioned as follows: one part to the person who shall have made the most important discovery or invention within the field of physics; one part to the person who shall have made the most important chemical discovery or improvement; one part to the person who shall have made the most important discovery within the domain of physiology or medicine; one part to the person who shall have produced in the field of literature the most outstanding work in an ideal direction; and one part to the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses. The prizes for physics and chemistry shall be awarded by the Swedish Academy of Sciences; that for physiology or medical works by the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm; that for literature by the Academy in Stockholm, and that for champions of peace by a committee of five persons to be elected by the Norwegian Storting. It is my express wish that in awarding the prizes no consideration be given to the nationality of the candidates, but that the most worthy shall receive the prize, whether he be Scandinavian or not."

    I must acknowledge that upon reading what Alfred Nobel himself intended, it certainly seems like Obama isn't a deserving recipient of the prize at this point in time. I imagine they must have awarded him it for his work for "fraternity between nations" during his campaign trail. They had no way of knowing what he would do once actually in office.

    That said, I'd say let's at least give it some time before shooting it down? Perhaps I am being naive and idealistic, but maybe this guy knows what he's doing?

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    Thank you for that. I have been aware of some of his transgressions for some time, but never in such depth and detail. I would not defend him passionately, but surely he had his virtues and accomplishments!

    A lot of the case against Kissinger rests on his human rights violations in third world countries. He was ruthless, unforgiving and downright inhumane by today's standards. Winston Churchill was, too. It does not justify either of their actions, but it's worth bearing in mind that times and values were different back then. It's not something to be proud of, of course, but what is considered acceptable varies with time. It is likely that future generations will gasp at the racism and prejudice of our generation, much as we do at those of the past. It's a good thing, because it shows that humanity as a race is progressing forward. Kissinger got away with things that he would not get away with today. You could say the same thing about Truman and the nuclear bomb- on hindsight that was quite a terrible thing to do, and there is no way that the American government today could get away with nuking another country and just drop a memo afterwards!

    I digressed a little bit there, but I think it's still somewhat relevant so I'm leaving it in. We always must consider the context of what we're talking about. The American Civil War of the late 1800s, for instance, revealed terrible prejudices and views on slavery that can never be justified- but we must also remember that human values really were different back then, and people in general really were a lot less civilized. It doesn't justify those transgressions, but it gives us a better understanding and would perhaps allow us to come to a more reasonable, justified conclusion. Noam Chomsky describes this very well in many of his essays.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Ethereal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomadic View Post
    I think Obama was more about rewarding the US voting demographic for voting to end to the Bush era and any legacy continuation of it.

    I mean, sure, Bush can do watever he wants to the US. We voted him in, or didn't stand up to voting irregularities whatever. So it is OUR FAULT. OUR PUNISHMENT. But he did affect the rest of the world so much, that really had no say in voting him in. Kind of like "Agitation without Representation"

    Did the Nobel Peace Prize become a relief award of angst from "Agitation without Representation"? Well, I can't blame them if it did. The only other real world changing event in 2008 was the financial crisis, Soviets invading Georgia, 2008 China olympics. What other candidates were there?
    List of Nobel Peace Prize laureates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    All Nobel Peace Prize Laureates

    You don't have to be a world leader to win the Nobel Peace Prize. They are just the ones we hear about. Heads of charities, diplomats, and others are all eligible to win, but in this case it was given to a major promoter of war.

    And it wasn't awarded to Obama because him being voted in to end the Bush era...

    Quote Originally Posted by nobel committee
    for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples.
    To note, he has continued most of the Bush era policies that he promised to end...

  9. #39
    Senior Member Ethereal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    That said, I'd say let's at least give it some time before shooting it down? Perhaps I am being naive and idealistic, but maybe this guy knows what he's doing?
    He has had about a year to live up to promises, and while I may never have been in the white house, I know that he could easily have gutted most Bush-era policies such as the Patriot Act and Iraq War, but hasn't. Furthermore, he has quite a few military-industrial lobbyists to positions within the Executive branch...

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I know that he could easily have gutted most Bush-era policies such as the Patriot Act and Iraq War, but hasn't. Furthermore, he has quite a few military-industrial lobbyists to positions within the Executive branch...
    How do you know this for certain? In reality, how easily can such things be done? Have you considered the possibility that it might not realistically plausible to "gut" such policies overnight, even if it were theoretically desirable to do so and we might all be better off for it? Perhaps there is information and knowledge about the practicalities and intricacies of the situation that he has only acquired upon getting into office, that may have changed his position? What would the consequences of such actions be? What would be the implications be on his presidency and the American people? How would he best fulfill his obligations to the American people? Change can be both good or bad but it is always unsettling, and I would think that it is both arrogance and poor politics for a President to attempt to change everything at the same time. He's making progress on healthcare, and that's very respectable. Let him do one thing at a time. I think we expect a little too much of the man.

    I also think it's too easy to jump the gun and assume that he must be at best a man whose idealism crumbled in the face of the real world, and at worse a man of false and empty promises. (On a separate note, what is it with the Anglo-American media and building up cult personalities just to tear them down? Are they so blatantly profit-oriented and exploitative of public sentiment? I suppose they are. Sigh.) I'd like to draw comparisons to Abraham Lincoln, who was judged very harshly by his peers and the public when he first became President. I'm not saying that Obama is definitely going to be Lincoln II; just that sometimes things aren't always as they seem or as we want to believe. We cannot know for sure at this point in time. Time will tell before we can be realistically certain, and even then there are always surprises.

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