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  1. #11
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    Actually I personally think that 200 years is quite a reasonable lifespan for a civilisation. For one, I do not think we are in the same civilisation as we were 200 years ago. Also the stages would very likely move quickly rather than in the period of over 1000 years.
    You seem to be confusing historical time periods with actual civilizations.

  2. #12
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    I thought the Sumerian civilization was the greatest on earth.
    Yeah I have a Sumerian friend, and she's just as sweet as can be.

  3. #13
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    These terms are too vague for me to categorize such a complex entity. Apathetic in terms of what? Complacent in terms of what? Without specific contexts, this amounts to nothing more than sweeping generalization.
    The whole idea of the opening section is something of a sweeping generalisation,, but I wouldn't say that makes it completely useless. I wouldn't bother trying to define the terms to specifically. Instead, try and think of them as general signs of prosperity or rot. If you like, I'll try and put into something a bit more specific.

    Bondage: The civilisation is highly dependant upon others. They may be litterally slaves, or just so technologically/economically/culturally backwards that they need someout side influence to get bet anything done. That could take the form of a slavemasters whip, or just inporting most of their ideas. Such as when Rome was ruled by the Etruscans,

    Spiritual faith: Not necessarily religious, but certainly a belief that they can better them selves and enough resolve to act upon it. This could be setting out to colonise a new land (USA) or realising that the Pharoh is not the boss of us because he's only incharge because of his army, and we are his army (Mamuluks).

    Great courage: Pretty much the same as great faith. I'm not sure if it counts as a seperate step. If it does, its a pretty small one!

    Liberty: Gaining independence to act as they wish. I guess the war of independance or the revolte against the Pharoh, or the Etruscans.

    Abundance: A period of grow and wealth. THey are now the ones doing the dominating and cultural exporting.

    Selfishness: Basically, an imperialistic and high handed attitude towards one neighbours. Think of the European colonial period and how their subjects were often treated. Actually, I'd say that this period often starts very soon after the Abundance stage and the two over lap for awhile. Selfishness tends to linger on longer than abundance, mind.

    Complacency: Yep, we rule the world and we know it. Why worry about what other people do or there new ideas. The world moves on around them, and the civilisation gets slower to respond and loses the initiative. Think of the Byzantine Empire in its sunset years. Centuries of customes and traditions, and so lacking in "get up and go". Hell, think of Europe and its decades long struggle to put the EU together while the tiger economies roar into life around them. Too much yaking, not enough action.

    Apathetic: Again, I think this slots almost seamless into the above section. It's just the latter stages.

    Dependance: Similar to bondage, but not quite as extreme yet. The civilisation is reliant on outside sources for some of the major things that keep it going. This could mean mercenaries, for a once military nation, or endless imports and foreign investment for a former trading power.

    And from there, you slip back into bondage. Does that make the idea more usefull for you?

  4. #14
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    ^ Nice post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You seem to be confusing historical time periods with actual civilizations.
    Perhaps I am...
    I'm more interested in the stages and the process of how these work. I haven't made the saying and I'm not sure whether to believe it but I think what the historian says should be considered.

  5. #15
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    Perhaps I am...
    I'm more interested in the stages and the process of how these work. I haven't made the saying and I'm not sure whether to believe it but I think what the historian says should be considered.
    You probably be interested in studying Metahistory, which deals with such subject manner. Oswald Spengler's Decline of the West and Toynbee's multi-volume A Study of History are considered the standards in this field.

    Spengler certainly noted that various stages a civilization moves from(Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter) and even made the distinction between Culture and Civilization.

  6. #16
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    or realising that the Pharoh is not the boss of us because he's only incharge because of his army, and we are his army (Mamuluks).
    Not to nitpick, but Mamluks did not serve under Pharaohs. They largely served under Arab-Ottoman overlords if I recall correctly. This is akin to saying Condottieri served under the Caesars.

  7. #17
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You probably be interested in studying Metahistory, which deals with such subject manner. Oswald Spengler's Decline of the West and Toynbee's multi-volume A Study of History are considered the standards in this field.

    Spengler certainly noted that various stages a civilization moves from(Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter) and even made the distinction between Culture and Civilization.
    Hmmm, Interesting, I will definitely have a look into them. Something new to look forward to.

  8. #18
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    I always did like Marcus Aurelius.

  9. #19
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    Hmmm, Interesting, I will definitely have a look into them. Something new to look forward to.
    Here's a basic overview of Spengler and one of Toynbee's Study of History

  10. #20
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Not to nitpick, but Mamluks did not serve under Pharaohs. They largely served under Arab-Ottoman overlords if I recall correctly. This is akin to saying Condottieri served under the Caesars.
    Wrong word. Caliph.

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