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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by ubiquitous1 View Post
    Self-protection, hunting > random gun deaths.
    Self-protection and hunting can be done with rifles and shotguns.

    Semi-automatic handguns are largely unnecessary.

  2. #82
    Senior Member ubiquitous1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Some say random gun deaths > Self-protection, hunting.
    Some may say this, but they are wrong. Guns save more lives and feed more people than they kill. (In the US anyway, look it up) Therefore, random gun deaths < Self-protection, hunting

  3. #83
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Oh... a private firm? I must have been mistaken. I thought the police in the UK used cameras like the ones in the photo to monitor for crime. I'm sorry, my mistake.
    Does it mean, my dear Oberon, that you have nothing against private surveillance cameras?

    Are you aware of what this imply?

    Do you also enjoy the concept of "gated communities"? Million and million of Americans apparently enjoy living in those prisons with golden bars.
    America is a country full of separation walls, borders and boundaries. Each neighbour is obsessed to protect himself from his other neighbour. You cannot just walk anywhere if ever you fancy to, so where is the real freedom, tell me?

    Why are you telling us of "nanny states" and "paternalism", when I notice that in my own country, I could travel by foot almost everywhere, and that the local farmers won't greet me with hunting rifles or automatic weapons if ever I trespass a forbidden limit?

    In Europe, you have free, public dirt roads, lanes everywhere. I can stop (almost) wherever I want. Forest, hills, villages, fields... And in France, I can freely travel along the shore and admire the landscape: there is no such a thing as a private beach.

    On the other hand, in the USA, most of the time you're trapped in your own car, with no possibility to escape but in the next Gas station. Even the fortunate ones are somehow trapped inside their own (magnificent) domain. Tell me, is this freedom? Real freedom? In some states, if I want to see "nature", I would have no other options left but to make a reservation weeks in advance inside a national park...

    For us, it's madness, it's alienation.

    What is the difference between a private surveillance camera and a public one?
    Only a difference of concept, you might argue... But in the real world? Both are scopic regimes of control, to paraphrase Foucault (1). There's the same kind of human eye behind the machine: it's basically the same job.

    At least in Europe, you have ways and ways to escape the dreaded watchful eye, the expanses are so wide, and they are everywhere... I simply need to take my bike, and that's it...while in the US... It's either that, or constantly live in an unsecure neighbourhood, surrounded by paranoid friends. And in your cities, there are some districts and streets where nobody would dare to go... and survive. In Western Europe, such districts are extremely rare, if non existent. Once again, in America, I cannot go anywhere I want, unless I'm decided to risk my life. For me, each time I cross the Atlantic, the fact that your society passively accepts this loss is a real cultural shock.
    The truth is I think America has become a society of FEAR (2).

    Have you forgotten what does "Quality of Life" mean? Are you ready to sacrifice it on the altar of a stubborn Ideology?

    Alienation starts when you begin not to be aware of your own true desires.

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    (1) On that subject, see: Foucault, Michel (1975). Discipline and Punish: the Birth of the Prison, New York: Random House.

    (2) Do you know the works of Mike Davis?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #84
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Self-protection and hunting can be done with rifles and shotguns.

    Semi-automatic handguns are largely unnecessary.
    So are X-Boxes and other consoles, TV, movies, a lot of things are unnecessary when you think about it.

    In theory I abhor any interference with my right to own anything or behave in any way that's not causing any harm or having any huge negative impact on anyone else, I understand that externalities, spill over effects, all the economic jargon for unintended consequences matter though.

    The thing about the principle or theory is that the practice sometimes doesnt add up, in reality I know just so, so many idiot young people, immature or disordered adults (I dont mean big, easily recognisable disorders either, little routine ones which combined with stress or circumstance result in real sh*t happening) to believe everyone's the same as me (my hang ups and disoders are harmless to anyone but me I'm generally well adjusted, got insight and reflective enough).

  5. #85
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Going back to the OP.

    In the UK we use some of the elements of socalisim in order to lower the overall administration burden on the individual.

    Take tax, in Oz or the US you need to complete full tax returns each year, in the UK, the vast majorities tax is taken from source... which is better? Well Oz and US mean that people are aware of what is taxed and not taxed, people who are unable due to limited education etc are in real trouble, here it is better but not perfect, but people are not educated about what is taxiable and what can be ofset.

    Insurance - we don't need private medical insurance unless we want premium care, but the normal standard care is prefectly sufficient for a normal person. We dont' need to wade through hospital bills, or pharma issues etc.

    Dentistry is nearly always private here now, there are so few NHS dentists.

    So we have a fair few collective systems so the individual doesn't need to spend a lot of time doing adminsitration.... I guess that appeals to my P-type which loathes Admin.

    Yes it bugs me that there is a nany culture, but I also benefit from not needing to take ownership of things that don't interest me.... I have more protection without feeling unempowered.

    For people who want to step up and take more control, there is very little prohibiting the individual to do so.

    We have free-er laws of communication and publishing, often thigns can be published here that simply can't be in the US (I'm guessing because of liable laws or other constraints).

    So goods and bads about our systems

  6. #86
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    In the UK we use some of the elements of socalisim in order to lower the overall administration burden on the individual.
    It may appear like semantics but I think its important, I dont consider the social order in the UK to be socialist or to have elements of socialism, at best it could be described as paternalistic. This would explain how it usurps authority and responsibility but simultaneously, in most instances, attempts to serve one and all.

    I say this is not what I understand as socialist because it can have some very anti-social consequences and there are not preconditions, caveats or qualifications of its practices that it should be based upon, reward, recognise or reinforce reciprocity, respect or social conscience or cohesion.

    So we have a fair few collective systems so the individual doesn't need to spend a lot of time doing adminsitration.... I guess that appeals to my P-type which loathes Admin.
    This is probably the best observation about social policy or welfare regimes which I've ever read or heard anyplace.

    For people who want to step up and take more control, there is very little prohibiting the individual to do so.
    I would concur, on the other hand most people who wish to take more control do so in some manner which reflects their controlling others and delegating those same administrative tasks which you've outlined to others.

  7. #87
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    It may appear like semantics but I think its important, I dont consider the social order in the UK to be socialist or to have elements of socialism, at best it could be described as paternalistic. This would explain how it usurps authority and responsibility but simultaneously, in most instances, attempts to serve one and all.

    I say this is not what I understand as socialist because it can have some very anti-social consequences and there are not preconditions, caveats or qualifications of its practices that it should be based upon, reward, recognise or reinforce reciprocity, respect or social conscience or cohesion.

    This is probably the best observation about social policy or welfare regimes which I've ever read or heard anyplace.



    I would concur, on the other hand most people who wish to take more control do so in some manner which reflects their controlling others and delegating those same administrative tasks which you've outlined to others.


    Hi

    I don't mind what semantics you want to use, but the reality is the welfare state is a socalist policy at the begining- now it's just part of the way the UK is run... I'm not actually that big on party politics, I don't see huge difference between the two lead parties these day.

    As for people who want to take control only to pass it onto someone they have hired, that's their choice - I would do it myself if I thought I would get any moeny back as a result, but I doubt that would happen as my affairs are not complex.

    Still I apprecaite that I don't have a bunch of adminsitration to do each year, and I don't pay for insurance right now so I apperciate the paying into the NHS thing. I beleive enough in that, that I would contribute more

  8. #88
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    So are X-Boxes and other consoles, TV, movies, a lot of things are unnecessary when you think about it.
    They don't generally kill people.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    They don't generally kill people.
    What this thread needs is more DEATH BY X-BOX.

  10. #90
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    From my perspective. The likelyhood of murder through momentary rage/passion is increased tremendously with the avaliability of guns.
    No more of an increase than the availability of a knife, a blunt object, or a nearby flight of stairs, or of your big enough, your own hands. I don't know what's worse, someone discharging a 9mm in my direction or someone like Mike Tyson punching me in the head - in fact, I would prefer to have a hand gun if confronted by someone like him.

    All these arguments of "let's take away sharp objects from people so they don't hurt each other" is overly paternalistic at best, but usually just tyrannical and oppressive style of government, i.e. "We know what's better for you than you do yourself".

    The "War on Drugs" falls under the same category.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

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