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  1. #71
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Does one's degree of self-control change because there's a war on?
    You dont think there's a difference between peace time and war time?

  2. #72
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Does one's degree of self-control change because there's a war on?
    All kinds of social elements that would affect who, how, and to what degree, people want to kill. War changes a lot of social elements. The more pressing the war, the better.

    On top of that, war alters the interests of the government and therefore how it wields its control, and this too changes society.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #73
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You dont think there's a difference between peace time and war time?
    Not in one's degree of self-control, no. In fact, I think it absurd that anyone would think that someone's degree of self-control would change based on whether or not his country was at war.

    In this application, one conclusion would be that people were thought to be less likely to commit murder during wartime, and therefore could be so completely trusted not to gratuitously snuff one another that the government could simply hand out weapons to them. Of course, all this changed after V-E day, and the weapons had to be dumped into the ocean.

    Or I suppose an alternative explanation would be that the cost of having a few hotheads whack one another in the streets was worth the benefit of being able to fight off a Nazi land invasion if one were forthcoming.

    The question I have is, was it the degree of self-control among the populace that changed during wartime, or was it that the contingencies of war made the question of self-control a lesser consideration?

    Or are you yanking my chain again?

  4. #74
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Not in one's degree of self-control, no. In fact, I think it absurd that anyone would think that someone's degree of self-control would change based on whether or not his country was at war.

    In this application, one conclusion would be that people were thought to be less likely to commit murder during wartime, and therefore could be so completely trusted not to gratuitously snuff one another that the government could simply hand out weapons to them. Of course, all this changed after V-E day, and the weapons had to be dumped into the ocean.

    Or I suppose an alternative explanation would be that the cost of having a few hotheads whack one another in the streets was worth the benefit of being able to fight off a Nazi land invasion if one were forthcoming.

    The question I have is, was it the degree of self-control among the populace that changed during wartime, or was it that the contingencies of war made the question of self-control a lesser consideration?

    Or are you yanking my chain again?
    It's pretty clear that the cost-benefit analysis changed in that circumstance. That's what policy's all about - making those kinds of collective decisions.

  5. #75
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It's pretty clear that the cost-benefit analysis changed in that circumstance. That's what policy's all about - making those kinds of collective decisions.
    HOLY SHIT!
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #76
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Not in one's degree of self-control, no. In fact, I think it absurd that anyone would think that someone's degree of self-control would change based on whether or not his country was at war.

    In this application, one conclusion would be that people were thought to be less likely to commit murder during wartime, and therefore could be so completely trusted not to gratuitously snuff one another that the government could simply hand out weapons to them. Of course, all this changed after V-E day, and the weapons had to be dumped into the ocean.

    Or I suppose an alternative explanation would be that the cost of having a few hotheads whack one another in the streets was worth the benefit of being able to fight off a Nazi land invasion if one were forthcoming.

    The question I have is, was it the degree of self-control among the populace that changed during wartime, or was it that the contingencies of war made the question of self-control a lesser consideration?

    Or are you yanking my chain again?
    Oberon I dont know where you got the impression I was ever "yanking your chain", if you want to talk about it that's OK but stop this needless antagonism.

    War does have significant impacts upon self-control, Durkheim's book on Suicide documents how the actual or perceived fortunes of nations or other important social entities influenced peoples willingness to take their own lives, I'd expect that the same would be true of other behaviour, such as the hot heads you describe.

    I think that the country in the time in question was a different place from it is today, Tony Benn has talked about how when he was a youth at the time people were given machine guns, trained to throw grenades into cafes should an invasion happen but the kind of mindless violence which contributed to the bans on possession of so much as a table knife wasnt prevailent.

    That didnt happen over night and consequently we have to work from were we are, not were we ought to be, were we would like to be or were we have at one time been, like the poster indicates.

    I also do not believe that the dispersal of weapons was the action of expediency undone by a wil' authoritarian regime, there was nothing like the decommissioning process which was discussed, for instance, in NI following the permanent cessation of armed struggles there. People disposed of the weapons which many of them were unhappy to have had in their homes in the first place because they did not consider them to have any utility during peace time. Now that's the fact of it and the poster itself reminds me of the campaigns to collect any iron or household metal for munitions factories or aviation works, it was a propaganda coup but in reality most of it was unuseable for that purpose.

    When the arguments on either side of the debate can be sufficiently made why resort to emotive and conspiratorial formulations about sinister creeping authoritarian government?

  7. #77
    Senior Member ubiquitous1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I am not intersted in beginning a case-study just for this thread, but I feel confident that one could rather objectively show that cars serve a greater purpose. A statement beyond opinion. But like I said, I'm just not interested in investing that much.

    The question, I think, requires me to ask about common place killings, as opposed to the odd mass killer. Do you think the random bursts of gun violence (which kill far more people than meditated killing sprees) would be replaced with random bombings if guns were banned?
    You have whittled your argument from the general intention of guns, to a specific type of gun related crime. Applying gun control to such a limited crime is akin to "throwing the baby out with the bath water." As long as you want to dismiss the legitimate role of guns there can be no meaningful debate.

  8. #78
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ubiquitous1 View Post
    You have whittled your argument from the general intention of guns, to a specific type of gun related crime. Applying gun control to such a limited crime is akin to "throwing the baby out with the bath water." As long as you want to dismiss the legitimate role of guns there can be no meaningful debate.
    The debate is centered on questioning if there is a legitimate role for guns. And since, as I pointed out, that random gun deaths are by far the most common kind, I'm not whittling it down much.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #79
    Senior Member ubiquitous1's Avatar
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    Self-protection, hunting > random gun deaths.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ubiquitous1 View Post
    Self-protection, hunting > random gun deaths.
    Okay... you watered the debate down to its basic positions. This is what we've been talking about, basically. Some say random gun deaths > Self-protection, hunting.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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