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  1. #21
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Oh... a private firm? I must have been mistaken. I thought the police in the UK used cameras like the ones in the photo to monitor for crime. I'm sorry, my mistake.
    They do. I hate them, they're all over the place. I notice far fewer of them when I'm on the Continent, though. In fact I had to look quite hard to find any that weren't obviously private ones on banks and suchlike, in Normandy. I noticed there weren't anywhere near as many in Dublin either, when I was last there. Ireland does seem a lot more sane on the whole nannying issue, than the UK, particularly England - you don't get it as badly in Scotland and Wales, though still worse probably than anywhere else. And even in England it's mostly the wealthy cities in the South and Midlands that are the worst culprits. They peter out as you go further north.

    They got away with it by getting the press to whip up total hysteria and make everyone ten times more afraid of crime than the crime statistics can possibly justify. Then they convinced everyone through TV shows that caught criminals by using CCTV footage, that having them was the lesser of the evils, "for your protection".

    That phrase is something I've come to despise.
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Oh... a private firm? I must have been mistaken. I thought the police in the UK used cameras like the ones in the photo to monitor for crime. I'm sorry, my mistake.



    '...had cameras checked...'? Why would they go to a private company to ask for their surveillance tapes?

    Something here doesn't make sense to me, but I'll trust you. After all, you're there and I'm not.
    The picture you hosted has Chroma Vision or something on it, the reality is that there's a range of surveillance out there, the state has no monopoly on it any longer and the state isnt even at the cutting edge of research and development in technologies like that, so the 1984 lite is a little dated.

    The second point was about all the cameras, public or private, in one case the individual was given the tapes themselves to watch, which made them inadmissable in court as evidence and an act of gross negligence on the art of investigating officers.

    My point was that cameras do not constitute the "big brother is watching you" that most people imagine, they are rather "big brother is looking out for the proprietors in your area".

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    They do. I hate them, they're all over the place. I notice far fewer of them when I'm on the Continent, though. In fact I had to look quite hard to find any that weren't obviously private ones on banks and suchlike, in Normandy. I noticed there weren't anywhere near as many in Dublin either, when I was last there. Ireland does seem a lot more sane on the whole nannying issue, than the UK, particularly England - you don't get it as badly in Scotland and Wales, though still worse probably than anywhere else. And even in England it's mostly the wealthy cities in the South and Midlands that are the worst culprits. They peter out as you go further north.

    They got away with it by getting the press to whip up total hysteria and make everyone ten times more afraid of crime than the crime statistics can possibly justify. Then they convinced everyone through TV shows that caught criminals by using CCTV footage, that having them was the lesser of the evils, "for your protection".

    That phrase is something I've come to despise.
    What's with despising them though?

    When everyone and their dog is carrying around technology as capable of recording you in their pockets, private cameras doing the same job for banks etc. its already become endemic.

  4. #24
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The picture you hosted has Chroma Vision or something on it, the reality is that there's a range of surveillance out there, the state has no monopoly on it any longer and the state isnt even at the cutting edge of research and development in technologies like that, so the 1984 lite is a little dated.

    The second point was about all the cameras, public or private, in one case the individual was given the tapes themselves to watch, which made them inadmissable in court as evidence and an act of gross negligence on the art of investigating officers.

    My point was that cameras do not constitute the "big brother is watching you" that most people imagine, they are rather "big brother is looking out for the proprietors in your area".
    It's all right. Others have been more forthright about my original point, which was that the UK has a high number of government-monitored surveillance cameras mounted and operating in an effort to montor the populace for illegal activity.

    I understand the contortions you had to go through to avoid making that simple admission. I sympathize. Peace.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    It's all right. Others have been more forthright about my original point, which was that the UK has a high number of government-monitored surveillance cameras mounted and operating in an effort to montor the populace for illegal activity.

    I understand the contortions you had to go through to avoid making that simple admission. I sympathize. Peace.
    I find your post a little confusing, it seems really accusatory and defensive. Perhaps that's your communication style. Its not generally how I choose to communicate.

  6. #26
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I find your post a little confusing, it seems really accusatory and defensive. Perhaps that's your communication style. Its not generally how I choose to communicate.
    I'm not generally accusatory... only when people demonstrate a range of behaviors that push my buttons. One of these is when it appears to me that people are being intellectually dishonest. When that happens, I'm liable to come out and say "You're being intellectually dishonest," which is, I'll admit, an accusation.

    I had better log out of here for a while. My temper is going to get me in trouble. Sorry.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I'm not generally accusatory... only when people demonstrate a range of behaviors that push my buttons. One of these is when it appears to me that people are being intellectually dishonest. When that happens, I'm liable to come out and say "You're being intellectually dishonest," which is, I'll admit, an accusation.

    I had better log out of here for a while. My temper is going to get me in trouble. Sorry.
    Right well, I hope its not me you're angry with, I'm not being dishonest and I'm willing to talk about whatever has given you that impression if that's what you think. Cheers.

  8. #28
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What's with despising them though?

    When everyone and their dog is carrying around technology as capable of recording you in their pockets, private cameras doing the same job for banks etc. its already become endemic.
    Someone randomly taking a photo of me cos I happen to be in front of a building they want a picture of; getting me in the same frame as something else by accident; even taking a photo of me deliberately for some reason of their own, even displaying it on the Internet - it's out of interest, I've no problem with it.

    When the police are doing it, I'm "potentially guilty" until proven innocent. That's what I resent. And I hate what they symbolise - that culture of fear and paranoia that I described before, without which they wouldn't be there. I feel like with the banks' ones, they're not so bad. They've got a more obvious need to survey their premises... the aim of their cameras is to catch anyone who tries anything. But the police ones are there to make me feel like big brother's watching me, so I'd *better not* try anything. It feels insulting to me, like telling me that I don't know how to behave and won't choose good behaviour unless I'm being watched.

    I've gotta say I find your ease with them just as baffling as you find my hatred of them. I'm wondering if you're going to say next, "the innocent have nothing to hide"
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
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  9. #29
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Victims of shooting rampages and victims of close acquaintences or family members are not "personally responsible" for the activities of their murderers.
    Allowing people to freely have hand guns just makes it easier to shoot someone in the back. There's nothing responsible about that, not even on the part of the murderer.

    You know what would impress me? The personal responsibility it would require to murder someone face-to-face with a knife or hammer. Now that's personal responsibility.
    I don't see how dying from a knife is any less awful than dying from a gun, or any other instrument:
    Japanese man kills seven in Tokyo stabbing rampage | World news | guardian.co.uk

    And if a person is intent on killing a family member, a lack of gun won't stop him/her.

    So if you accept pure_mercury's statement that gun rampages are rare, what is the point of you villifying guns over any other tools that can be used for murder?
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    I don't see how dying from a knife is any less awful than dying from a gun, or any other instrument:
    Japanese man kills seven in Tokyo stabbing rampage | World news | guardian.co.uk

    And if a person is intent on killing a family member, a lack of gun won't stop him/her.

    So if you accept pure_mercury's statement that gun rampages are rare, what is the point of you villifying guns over any other tools that can be used for murder?
    I don't think that the death is any less awful. But I do think that guns can exponentially increase the number of murders. It makes killing too easy.

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