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  1. #201
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Yes it is. Who actively seeks to include minorities of all types, and their specific issues, into its fold?
    You don't think that the right appeals to marginalized people?


    Did any of them shoot up a Unitarian Church, or, you know, actually assassinate anyone (like George Tiller)?
    Was George Tiller motivated by political disdain? The guy was an anti-abortion fanatic who believed that abortion doctors were murderers. That is not the same as a political assassination.


    Sigh. Read the book. Or don't, and remain ignorant. That's your prerogative, I guess.
    Is that statement incorrect?


    It was also very regional, unlike Bush's policies.
    There were still discriminatory laws on the books in the North, but the North usually employed "gentleman's agreements" rather than de jure segregation. And Lincoln's suspending of habeas corpus affected all citizens in those areas.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    And those CHANGES in policy toward specific ends vary from country to country.

    The common factor though is change from the present accepted order of things.
    NO! No, that is absolutely incorrect. The right often wants a change from the present accepted order of things, too. Look at the "Reagan Revolution."
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    NO! No, that is absolutely incorrect. The right often wants a change from the present accepted order of things, too. Look at the "Reagan Revolution."
    You have a really hard time accepting broad conceptual frameworks, I've noticed. You get bogged down in details.

    I'm trying to explain to you the universal basic idea of "left" and "right" politically - with examples from another country quite different from ours no less - and you're still talking about the Reagan Revolution.

    You can't see the forest for the trees, Merc. You're missing the point.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    You have a really hard time accepting broad conceptual frameworks, I've noticed. You get bogged down in details.

    I'm trying to explain to you the universal basic idea of "left" and "right" politically - with examples from another country quite different from ours no less - and you're still talking about the Reagan Revolution.

    You can't see the forest for the trees, Merc. You're missing the point.

    Yes, and I am explaining that you are mistaken, because those frameworks do not fit what "left" and "right" mean in the modern world. Would a constitutional amendment banning abortion be "right" or "left?" Would the opposition to Chavez in Venezuela be "right" or "left?" Of course the parameters vary from situation to situation, but "left = change/right = tradition" simply does not hold up in modern politics.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Yes, and I am explaining that you are mistaken, because those frameworks do not fit what "left" and "right" mean in the modern world. Would a constitutional amendment banning abortion be "right" or "left?" Would the opposition to Chavez in Venezuela be "right" or "left?" Of course the parameters vary from situation to situation, but "left = change/right = tradition" simply does not hold up in modern politics.
    "Left/Right is the basic polarity of political temperament, the axis of political antagonism which manifests itself across all shades of politics, all epochs and social movements. Broadly speaking, the left-wing expresses that social force which is the most marginalised by, and has the least commitment to, the status quo and power relations of the existing society, and it responds to this position by being reformist or revolutionary. Meanwhile, the right-wing is by and large committed to reinforcement of, or at least adaptation to, the status quo and its power relations by being conservative or reactionary."

    You're acting like I made this up by myself or something. It's starting to amuse me.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    "Left/Right is the basic polarity of political temperament, the axis of political antagonism which manifests itself across all shades of politics, all epochs and social movements. Broadly speaking, the left-wing expresses that social force which is the most marginalised by, and has the least commitment to, the status quo and power relations of the existing society, and it responds to this position by being reformist or revolutionary. Meanwhile, the right-wing is by and large committed to reinforcement of, or at least adaptation to, the status quo and its power relations by being conservative or reactionary."

    You're acting like I made this up by myself or something. It's starting to amuse me.

    The Encyclopedia of Marxism. Really? REALLY?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You don't think that the right appeals to marginalized people?
    Not at all. The right may attempt to evoke a persecution complex in the majority, but the people themselves are not marginalized in the least bit.

    Was George Tiller motivated by political disdain? The guy was an anti-abortion fanatic who believed that abortion doctors were murderers. That is not the same as a political assassination.
    Yes it is. Abortion is a political issue. It is a question of policy whether we allow doctors to provide abortions, or punish them for it.


    Is that statement incorrect?
    Yes, it is incorrect. It is not easy to explain why in a forum post. You'd get much more out of reading the description in the book.

    There were still discriminatory laws on the books in the North, but the North usually employed "gentleman's agreements" rather than de jure segregation. And Lincoln's suspending of habeas corpus affected all citizens in those areas.
    You clearly aren't seeing the difference between a systematic, state-sponsored denial of rights as compared to a social convention. You also keep bringing up something that happened a long time ago, in a period which precedes the one I mentioned. Why would you do that?

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Not at all. The right may attempt to evoke a persecution complex in the majority, but the people themselves are not marginalized in the least bit.
    Poor Southern whites aren't marginalized at all? Devoutly Catholic Hispanic immigrants aren't marginalized at all? Working-class urban social conservatives aren't marginalized at all? You cannot be serious.


    Yes it is. Abortion is a political issue. It is a question of policy whether we allow doctors to provide abortions, or punish them for it.
    That was a personal religious belief, as well. The vast majority of pro-lifers are disgusted by extremists who shoot doctors, just like the vast majority of left-wingers would be (and were, I am certain) disgusted by people who wished for Bush to be assassinated, and the vast majority of right-wingers are disgusted by people who wish for Obama to be assassinated. That isn't policy; that is human decency.


    Yes, it is incorrect. It is not easy to explain why in a forum post. You'd get much more out of reading the description in the book.
    It's not incorrect. Plenty of people on the left want to be socially dominant. There is no way around that. That is reality.


    You clearly aren't seeing the difference between a systematic, state-sponsored denial of rights as compared to a social convention. You also keep bringing up something that happened a long time ago, in a period which precedes the one I mentioned. Why would you do that?
    But Jim Crow laws WERE systematic, state-sponsored denials of rights. That WAS policy back then. I am doing that because your assertion that post-9/11 government repression was some newfangled thing when it clearly was not.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The Encyclopedia of Marxism. Really? REALLY?
    I love to annoy you so.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Poor Southern whites aren't marginalized at all? Devoutly Catholic Hispanic immigrants aren't marginalized at all? Working-class urban social conservatives aren't marginalized at all? You cannot be serious.
    Nope. Southern whites drive the region's politics (and generally don't complain about the problems endemic to their class), so you're wrong there. Working-class social conservatives usually vote with the economic liberals, so you're wrong there. Hispanic immigrants don't take too kindly to the nativism on the right after a little while, so you're wrong there too.

    Does it suck to be so wrong so often?

    That was a personal religious belief, as well. The vast majority of pro-lifers are disgusted by extremists who shoot doctors, just like the vast majority of left-wingers would be (and were, I am certain) disgusted by people who wished for Bush to be assassinated, and the vast majority of right-wingers are disgusted by people who wish for Obama to be assassinated. That isn't policy; that is human decency.
    Look at the rhetoric. O'Reilly had been calling for his head for years. That guy wouldn't even know who Tiller was if there were no right-wing movement. Most of the Bush "death-threats" were made by foreign protesters, and in this country, anarchist extremists.


    It's not incorrect. Plenty of people on the left want to be socially dominant. There is no way around that. That is reality.
    You make yourself look more foolish each time you respond before reading the book, and understanding the precise definition of Social Dominance Orientation.

    But Jim Crow laws WERE systematic, state-sponsored denials of rights. That WAS policy back then. I am doing that because your assertion that post-9/11 government repression was some newfangled thing when it clearly was not.
    Fine, I try making a point, and you're too dense to get it.

    The assholes who institute most of these policies are the same authoritarian jerks who dominate Southern politics! That's why conservatism isn't Barry Goldwater's anymore! We're supposed to be better than the days of chattel slavery and no voting for women. We're also supposed to be better than oppressing someone who looks funny. That you can't even see that big picture is truly astonishing.

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