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  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Those definitions shouldn't even be "left" or "right" then. Many of the left in the United States are majorly traditionalist. These terms are useless if we have so many definitions of left and right that we don't even know what we're talking about now. The extreme social right-wing in the U.S. does NOT want "people to be constrained to what is currently accepted by society as normal." They want to impose sweeping social change, but in a radically different way from most of what you would call "the left."



    His usage of right and left are correct. For example, (dear god this is the third time I've brought this up in different threads, somebody stop me) my math professor who immigrated here from the USSR told me that "left wing" there means capitalism and democracy and right wing means socialism/communism.

    Right and left wing do refer to people who on one extreme cling to social tradition, and at the other extreme want change at all costs.


    Besides, even if we confine this to the US, far right wing means to most people Christian fundamentalist Reagan-style conservatives. Far right does not mean libertarian as you seem to be implying here.

  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    However, they believe that it is "normal" and that everything else is an aberration to be shunned and feared. That is why they can say with a straight face that all the Founding Fathers were Christian, even when you point out to them that a good proportion were Deists.
    And the "left" thinks that what they want is normal and that the extreme right are to be shunned and feared. It cuts in all ways.


    Sure they were - they specifically sought to have physical coercive power over individuals without due process. That's a shift that we maybe only last saw (outside of the Jim Crow South) during the Red Scare following WWI.
    And during the Civil War, when Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and put newspaper publishers in jail. And when FDR put Japanese-Americans in concentration camps. And when several presidents forcibly put Native Americans into reservations. . . Please, this is not even up for debate.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    And the "left" thinks that what they want is normal and that the extreme right are to be shunned and feared. It cuts in all ways.
    I'd say it's more the left knows what it wants, and isn't afraid to try and get it done. Considering the left is the realm of the marginalized in society, I'd say they're pretty aware that they aren't "normal".

    Notice, too, that the left doesn't look upon these people with anger as much as frustration ("why do you constantly vote against your economic interest?"). The anger is toward what the studies describe as those with Social Dominance Orientation - people who care for nothing more than controlling others at all costs. It's the people who manipulate those with RWA who are the true villains in society, the Tom DeLays and George Wallaces of the world.

    And during the Civil War, when Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and put newspaper publishers in jail. And when FDR put Japanese-Americans in concentration camps. And when several presidents forcibly put Native Americans into reservations. . . Please, this is not even up for debate.
    Since. The word was since. All those policies, abhorrent as they may have been, were targeted toward a particular class of individual. The Bush-era policies were not; you merely had to be accused of terrorism. That's a huge difference.

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    His usage of right and left are correct. For example, (dear god this is the third time I've brought this up in different threads, somebody stop me) my math professor who immigrated here from the USSR told me that "left wing" there means capitalism and democracy and right wing means socialism/communism.

    Right and left wing do refer to people who on one extreme cling to social tradition, and at the other extreme want change at all costs.
    That is an oddball definition of right and left, especially in regards to the U.S.


    Besides, even if we confine this to the US, far right wing means to most people Christian fundamentalist Reagan-style conservatives. Far right does not mean libertarian as you seem to be implying here.
    What are you talking about?

    1) Reagan was not a fundamentalist Christian.

    2) I was not implying that "far right" means "libertarian." In fact, I always argue that libertarianism actually goes hand-in-hand with classical liberalism.

    3) I WAS talking about extreme social conservatives.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That is an oddball definition of right and left, especially in regards to the U.S.




    What are you talking about?

    1) Reagan was not a fundamentalist Christian.

    2) I was not implying that "far right" means "libertarian." In fact, I always argue that libertarianism actually goes hand-in-hand with classical liberalism.

    3) I WAS talking about extreme social conservatives.
    Okay, as for the second part, I clearly misunderstood you.

    But for the first part - those are the standard definitions of left and right. Liberal and conservative. Change vs. tradition.

  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I'd say it's more the left knows what it wants, and isn't afraid to try and get it done. Considering the left is the realm of the marginalized in society, I'd say they're pretty aware that they aren't "normal".

    Notice, too, that the left doesn't look upon these people with anger as much as frustration ("why do you constantly vote against your economic interest?"). The anger is toward what the studies describe as those with Social Dominance Orientation - people who care for nothing more than controlling others at all costs. It's the people who manipulate those with RWA who are the true villains in society, the Tom DeLays and George Wallaces of the world.
    That is BULLSHIT. Let's break it down:

    1) The left is NOT the realm of the marginalized in society.

    2) The left is full of angry people. You think that people who openly hoped for Bush 43 to be assassinated were just "frustrated?"

    3) Plenty of people on the left want to be socially dominant.



    Since. The word was since. All those policies, abhorrent as they may have been, were targeted toward a particular class of individual. The Bush-era policies were not; you merely had to be accused of terrorism. That's a huge difference.
    And Jim Crow WASN'T targeted to a particular class of individual?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That is BULLSHIT. Let's break it down:

    1) The left is NOT the realm of the marginalized in society.

    2) The left is full of angry people. You think that people who openly hoped for Bush 43 to be assassinated were just "frustrated?"

    3) Plenty of people on the left want to be socially dominant.
    I'm actually going to have to agree with you here.

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That is BULLSHIT. Let's break it down:

    1) The left is NOT the realm of the marginalized in society.
    Yes it is. Who actively seeks to include minorities of all types, and their specific issues, into its fold?

    2) The left is full of angry people. You think that people who openly hoped for Bush 43 to be assassinated were just "frustrated?"
    Did any of them shoot up a Unitarian Church, or, you know, actually assassinate anyone (like George Tiller)?

    3) Plenty of people on the left want to be socially dominant.
    Sigh. Read the book. Or don't, and remain ignorant. That's your prerogative, I guess.

    And Jim Crow WASN'T targeted to a particular class of individual?
    It was also very regional, unlike Bush's policies.

  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    But for the first part - those are the standard definitions of left and right. Liberal and conservative. Change vs. tradition.
    That's incorrect. Look at 1980. Was Reagan on the left because he wanted to institute sweeping social and economic change? Look at wikipedia: "In politics, left-wing, leftist and the Left generally imply support for social change with a view towards creating a more egalitarian society." This is a phrase with a lot of import. It's not just about "change." It's about changes IN POLICY toward specific ends.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That's incorrect. Look at 1980. Was Reagan on the left because he wanted to institute sweeping social and economic change? Look at wikipedia: "In politics, left-wing, leftist and the Left generally imply support for social change with a view towards creating a more egalitarian society." This is a phrase with a lot of import. It's not just about "change." It's about changes IN POLICY toward specific ends.
    And those CHANGES in policy toward specific ends vary from country to country.

    The common factor though is change from the present accepted order of things.

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