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  1. #11
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Every mobile phone I see on sale has a surveillace camera in it, everyone can and does surveill everyone else. Is that what you meant?
    Actually no, I did not mean cameras in the hands of individual private citizens. Rather, I meant these:



    Specifically, I meant surveillance cameras controlled by the state to monitor the conduct of individual private citizens.

  2. #12
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I think that despite all of their lovely freedom, Americans don't really take more "personal responsibility" - they're still shooting each other up in droves at school, church, fast-food restaurants, post offices, and now military bases.
    Statistically, that is not true. Shooting rampages are extremely rare. The death toll from drug-related homicides or murder among family members and other close acquaintances is exponentially higher than that from mass murderers. Mass murder is not a uniquely American phenomenon, either.


    Plus, Americans are always suing each other over the most completely stupid non-gun related issues - like, "oh! I tripped over my shoe in Wal-Mart! Guess I have to sue now!"

    Yes, it is that bad here. Anyone who thinks Americans, in general, are more "personally responsible" aren't actually looking at our country and our culture.
    We still have a residual cultural taboo against excessive government paternalism. Look at how many Americans have risen up to fight Obamacare.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Statistically, that is not true. Shooting rampages are extremely rare. The death toll from drug-related homicides or murder among family members and other close acquaintances is exponentially higher than that from mass murderers. Mass murder is not a uniquely American phenomenon, either.
    Victims of shooting rampages and victims of close acquaintences or family members are not "personally responsible" for the activities of their murderers.
    Allowing people to freely have hand guns just makes it easier to shoot someone in the back. There's nothing responsible about that, not even on the part of the murderer.

    You know what would impress me? The personal responsibility it would require to murder someone face-to-face with a knife or hammer. Now that's personal responsibility.




    We still have a residual cultural taboo against excessive government paternalism. Look at how many Americans have risen up to fight Obamacare.
    Having a cultural taboo against government paternalism does not mean that people are, in reality, taking personal responsibility for their actions. This just means they rely on corporate paternalism, or the "free market" to save them from the consequences of their actions, allowing them to delusionally feel more smug about their supposed "personal responsibility."

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Victims of shooting rampages and victims of close acquaintences or family members are not "personally responsible" for the activities of their murderers.
    Allowing people to freely have hand guns just makes it easier to shoot someone in the back. There's nothing responsible about that, not even on the part of the murderer.

    You know what would impress me? The personal responsibility it would require to murder someone face-to-face with a knife or hammer. Now that's personal responsibility.
    People get murdered by knives and hammers all the time. You should live in the UK if you like knife violence. It's far more common there than in the U.S.


    Having a cultural taboo against government paternalism does not mean that people are, in reality, taking personal responsibility for their actions. This just means they rely on corporate paternalism, or the "free market" to save them from the consequences of their actions, allowing them to delusionally feel more smug about their supposed "personal responsibility."
    Yeah, that makes sense. I can sell you a very nice grindstone for that ax you're carrying.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Actually no, I did not mean cameras in the hands of individual private citizens. Rather, I meant these:



    Specifically, I meant surveillance cameras controlled by the state to monitor the conduct of individual private citizens.
    Is that why those appear to be the property of a private firm, hence the labelling on them?

    Anyway, most of them are decidedly used to monitor and protect property, this is no lie. I've known enough people who've had cameras checked in the wake of being raped or assaulted only to find that the cameras were looking the other way.

  6. #16
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Is that why those appear to be the property of a private firm, hence the labelling on them?
    Oh... a private firm? I must have been mistaken. I thought the police in the UK used cameras like the ones in the photo to monitor for crime. I'm sorry, my mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Anyway, most of them are decidedly used to monitor and protect property, this is no lie. I've known enough people who've had cameras checked in the wake of being raped or assaulted only to find that the cameras were looking the other way.
    '...had cameras checked...'? Why would they go to a private company to ask for their surveillance tapes?

    Something here doesn't make sense to me, but I'll trust you. After all, you're there and I'm not.

  7. #17
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Since this continued off of the gun control thread, I'll use that as a jumping-off point.

    If the initial proposed idea is true, the people in the USA should have more personal responsibility than the people in the UK. Yet one of the main things that fires up comparison of gun control between the two countries is the fact that people in the USA shoot each way more than people in the UK. You say policies like the gun control laws deminish personal responsibility. I ask you, does the behavior in the USA look like personal responsibility to you?
    Agreeign with the full momentum of this... The US culture is abotu people not taking personal responcibility - litiguous socieity... GOD help us if that happens in the UK......

    Why take personal responsibility when you can blems someone else and take their shirt off their back without having to do more than break a bone.

    As for the UK culture, SCNDELOUS appathy is the issue in the UK, people just dont' give a stuff... highest number o cameras (which have been sold to the population - if you aren't don't anything wrong there is not issues videoing it...) In fairness these cameras do seem to be helpful in solving crime. Bottom line is you can strip away fundemental rights and the population just dont' respond until they are really insesed by something.

    The marches agains the war - sadly the governement didn't listen but for once the UK population demonstrated... good god...

    Motivating our population is difficult, yes there is an element of nany culture but there are many other things in our culture that balance this type of things out.

  8. #18
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Oh... a private firm? I must have been mistaken. I thought the police in the UK used cameras like the ones in the photo to monitor for crime. I'm sorry, my mistake.



    '...had cameras checked...'? Why would they go to a private company to ask for their surveillance tapes?

    Something here doesn't make sense to me, but I'll trust you. After all, you're there and I'm not.
    Ob

    yes the police use these cameras, and speed cameras on raods too...

    We have the highest number of survalance camera (per head) like your photo in the world (so I beleive)...

    But hey they are for our benefit... and they do tend to be in areas of high crime

  9. #19
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Agreeign with the full momentum of this... The US culture is abotu people not taking personal responcibility - litiguous socieity... GOD help us if that happens in the UK......
    As I understand it, the civil courts in the UK have one vital difference that prevents this from happening: The loser pays. That is, if you bring suit in a civil case and lose, you pay not only your legal expenses, but the defendant's legal expenses and the court costs to boot.

    Which means that there is a high risk associated with frivolous lawsuits. Some of us in the US would like to see this happen over here as well, preferably as part of a broader effort at tort reform.

  10. #20
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    As I understand it, the civil courts in the UK have one vital difference that prevents this from happening: The loser pays. That is, if you bring suit in a civil case and lose, you pay not only your legal expenses, but the defendant's legal expenses and the court costs to boot.

    Which means that there is a high risk associated with frivolous lawsuits. Some of us in the US would like to see this happen over here as well, preferably as part of a broader effort at tort reform.

    ewe - yes and no, there are a lot of adverts for slip and trip type claims, the law team will only take winnable cases on a no win no fee basis.... it's coming here and fast, the adverts are on every day.

    No offense but this is definately part of US culture we can live without... encouraging the popupation to take less responcibility is not a good outcome... hmmm

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