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  1. #141
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    You just basically threw out the whole concept of Bill of Rights with that statement (i.e. "Hey citizen, these are not for you, these are for the people, so fuck off").

    Just to be clear, your assertion is that the US Constitution had nothing to with individual rights?
    Originally, no - because individuals would ultimately be administered by their state governments, who could be as libertarian or authoritarian as they desired. That was essentially the Tenth Amendment's meaning at the time.

    Which is why the Fourteenth Amendment is so important - it incorporated these rights to the states, which combined with the developing constitutional law through the courts, made them individual rights.

  2. #142
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Not my fault that the Constitution wasn't written by God herself, but rather a bunch of lawyers who knew their history.

    First Amendment doesn't enshrine the freedom of speech per se; it is just a restriction on the powers of Congress in passing certain kinds of legislation. The common law already had plenty of restrictions on speech (such as "shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater). The current understanding is an interpretation (such as the amendment applying to the executive branch, judicial branch, and bureaucracy) that has been developed over many decades of law.
    That trip down the memory lane you gave me in a previous post reminds me of theocracists who disregard the whole "separation of church and state", and instead go for the historical argument, i.e. "U.S. was always a Christian nation!"
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  3. #143
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    So where does the militia come in? "Militia" still doesn't mean "army at the state level." Certainly not in the 18th Century.
    It meant exactly what you said it meant. The amendment also says that this militia would be necessary to a "free State". Consequently, the term of art "keep and bear arms", which meant "have an army", was essential to maintaining the freedom of the states.

    Under this interpretation, interestingly enough, the South had a lot of justification for engaging in the Civil War.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It was pretty well understood to North Americans who grew up in the Age of Enlightenment under the spell of John Locke.
    Yeah, but there were a lot more who were more conventional in this outlook and regarded those views as radical and fanciful. Look at contemporary opinions about the French Revolution; while you had people like Paine and Jefferson who thought it was a glorious affair, you also had those like Governeur Morris and Alexander Hamilton who got the Jay Treaty signed.

    The Framers were deeply divided over what the nature of this government was to be.

  4. #144
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    That trip down the memory lane you gave me in a previous post reminds me of theocracists who disregard the whole "separation of church and state", and instead go for the historical argument, i.e. "U.S. was always a Christian nation!"
    Umm... what?

    I hope you're not confusing a historical commentary on the Constitution at the time of its writing with what I believe its modern interpretation to be. I do think the Constitution protects individual rights. I also think that's because of further amendments, Supreme Court interpretations, and historical events (such as the Civil War), and not how it originally manifested.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Not sure what you expect out of me. You want to challenge me to a statistics duel? There are limitations on that. I already mentioned to Magic P that gun ownership statistics don't take into account how many times violence was averted by a mere presence of the gun on a potential victim, without gun being discharged.
    Well, there must be some reason that people in the U.S. vs. other prominent countries in the Western world are inclined to have public shoot outs. If gun ownership is not the problem, what is? Why is there more relative peace in Switzerland?

  6. #146
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It meant exactly what you said it meant. The amendment also says that this militia would be necessary to a "free State". Consequently, the term of art "keep and bear arms", which meant "have an army", was essential to maintaining the freedom of the states.

    Under this interpretation, interestingly enough, the South had a lot of justification for engaging in the Civil War.
    The question of secession was a legitimate constitutional crisis. The South's cause was atrocious, but they had an argument as to being able to leave the Union.


    Yeah, but there were a lot more who were more conventional in this outlook and regarded those views as radical and fanciful. Look at contemporary opinions about the French Revolution; while you had people like Paine and Jefferson who thought it was a glorious affair, you also had those like Governeur Morris and Alexander Hamilton who got the Jay Treaty signed.

    The Framers were deeply divided over what the nature of this government was to be.
    I am actually not an original intent man. I am more in tune with Randy Barnett's "original meaning" view.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #147
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Well, there must be some reason that people in the U.S. vs. other prominent countries in the Western world are inclined to have public shoot outs. If gun ownership is not the problem, what is? Why is there more relative peace in Switzerland?
    How often is there an actual "public shootout" in the United States? That almost never happens.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    We had Dubya as a fucking President for 8 years for God's sake.

    That's as high of a government official as you can get.

    Maybe things work better in UK with the whole monarchy thing, but that's not how we roll here.
    This is true.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    How often is there an actual "public shootout" in the United States? That almost never happens.
    It happens often enough to be troublesome. To say it almost never happens is as exaggerating as much as saying it happens all of the time. It appears to be some bizarre cultural trend.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    "Well-regulated"

    Another interpretation I've been looking at which seems to make a lot of sense is that the phrase "keep and bear arms" in its contemporary context didn't mean gun ownership as much as it meant "have an army". What this means is that the US Army would be owned by the people, much like the British Army is, and not drawn up by a centralized force, like the Royal Navy is (which exists at the pleasure of the Monarch). Given the relatively recent memory of the English Civil War, and the surrounding context of the Third Amendment and the establishment of the President as Commander-in-Chief, the interpretation would be:

    Since it's necessary for able-bodied males to be in fighting shape and under local control to prevent incursions on their collective freedom, the right of the People to their own army shall not be infringed.

    Really makes sense in the historical context.
    Well although I'm theoretically on your side, the right of the people to *their own army* would mean that every ordinary citizen is armed. The idea, of course, that the People can revolt against a corrupt government if need be.

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