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  1. #221
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Personally I suspect that despite the wide presence of guns in the US the crime rate is equally high if not higher than in the UK which kind of puts a full stop in the whole "guns reduce the risk of crime" theory.
    I've only ever seen statistics suggesting the opposite. UK crime rates are consistently lower.

    But there's more at stake than general crime figures anyway. In the UK we've got a choice (or we would have if major changes ever became a serious possibility instead of a hypothetical one brought up by curious Americans...). We can either keep the existing laws, which stop us from having to worry about intruders and attackers having guns. Or, we loosen them, which would allow us to protect ourselves which much more effective weapons but would simultaneously make it many times more likely that criminals would themselves have and use against us those same weapons. To my mind, the latter would be pointless. You've got a greater chance of surviving a confrontation with the kinds of weapons and makeshift weapons you can keep in your house already than you have of surviving a gun fight. Why would we introduce a much more deadly threat into our lives? To make us safer? How, exactly, would it do that?

  2. #222
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by compulsiverambler View Post
    I've only ever seen statistics suggesting the opposite. UK crime rates are consistently lower.
    Seconded. Crime is lower in the UK than in the US. Violent crime is specifically even lower. And violent crime with firearms is specifically even lower than that.

    However, it is true that there is some inconsistency in gun violence rates as compared to gun control laws. This does not prove that gun control does nothing, only that there are multiple factors. One would have to do a very meticulous analysis to determine if the influence of gun control laws are negligible.

    What I will point out, as an alternative factor, is that gun violence is sharply drawn down economic lines. Where there's less poverty, there's less gun violence. The USA happens to be the most impovershed and stratified nation considered developed.
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  3. #223
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    The UK on the other hand is much older. We came from England of course. Guns were used to control back then. It is hard to get a society to break away from that. It is still new to us.
    In the Victorian era, it was quite unremarkable for a gentleman to have a Webley or a Tranter in his coat pocket, especially when traveling.

  4. #224
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by compulsiverambler View Post
    In the UK we've got a choice (or we would have if major changes ever became a serious possibility instead of a hypothetical one brought up by curious Americans...). We can either keep the existing laws, which stop us from having to worry about intruders and attackers having guns.
    Yes, because when you make something illegal, the criminals will stop using it, right?
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  5. #225

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    No but gun controls can effect the amount of weapons in circulation and therefore their availability to anyone, whether they respect gun control in principle or not.

  6. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    In the Victorian era, it was quite unremarkable for a gentleman to have a Webley or a Tranter in his coat pocket, especially when traveling.
    This is possibly one of the very most interesting points in gun control debates, it was also possible to buy dynamite more easily in the past and there were not as many incidents of "mad bombings" necessitating control.

    Do you think that class divisions and income prevented guns becoming available to criminal rather than gentlemanly elements or how did it work?

  7. #227
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Seconded. Crime is lower in the UK than in the US. Violent crime is specifically even lower. And violent crime with firearms is specifically even lower than that.
    You are 100% incorrect. The crime rate per capita in the UK is higher than that in the U.S. I do not know where you are getting "crime is lower in the UK."

    Total crimes (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.



    However, it is true that there is some inconsistency in gun violence rates as compared to gun control laws. This does not prove that gun control does nothing, only that there are multiple factors. One would have to do a very meticulous analysis to determine if the influence of gun control laws are negligible.
    They have done meticulous analyses. How do you account for falling murder/violent crime rates in many states who have legalized concealed carry laws? Or for the fact that the cities with the strictest gun control in the U.S. have the most violent crime?


    What I will point out, as an alternative factor, is that gun violence is sharply drawn down economic lines. Where there's less poverty, there's less gun violence. The USA happens to be the most impovershed and stratified nation considered developed.
    Again, incorrect. The United States poverty rate (depending on your definition) is either slightly higher or slightly LOWER than that of the UK, which also has a lower GDP per capita. Of course, this does not challenge your hypothesis that more relative poverty leads to more crime (since the UK has a higher crime rate), but it is inaccurate to call the United States the "most impoverished" developed nation.


    BTW, you sure seem to have a wealth of faux-statistics misleading you. I noticed you never responded to my post about the "more likely being killed by your own gun" nonsense that gun control advocates disseminate.
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  8. #228
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Yes, because when you make something illegal, the criminals will stop using it, right?
    In the UK, YES, that's what's happened!!! Aren't you people looking at the statistics or reading the thread? I'm telling you, people in Britain do not lock up their houses at night or go in to town or go to the bank worrying specifically about the risk guns might pose unless they're policemen or are themselves heavily embroiled in gangs and trafficking. For the rest of the population, gun crime is exceedingly unlikely to ever affect us, and as someone has said, makes frontpage news when it does happen, because it's so rare. Why is that so hard to believe?

  9. #229
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by compulsiverambler View Post
    In the UK, YES, that's what's happened!!! Aren't you people looking at the statistics or reading the thread? I'm telling you, people in Britain do not lock up their houses at night or go in to town or go to the bank worrying specifically about the risk guns might pose unless they're policemen or are themselves heavily embroiled in gangs and trafficking. For the rest of the population, gun crime is exceedingly unlikely to ever affect us, and as someone has said, makes frontpage news when it does happen, because it's so rare. Why is that so hard to believe?

    I never worry about being shot going to the bank. I don't even worry about being mugged, and Los Angeles has a pretty high crime rate. Statistically speaking, people in the UK have MORE crime to worry about than people in the U.S. do. Well, they don't have to worry as much about being shot/killed, but Americans who are really concerned about that arm themselves.
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  10. #230
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You are 100% incorrect. The crime rate per capita in the UK is higher than that in the U.S. I do not know where you are getting "crime is lower in the UK."

    Total crimes (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.





    They have done meticulous analyses. How do you account for falling murder/violent crime rates in many states who have legalized concealed carry laws? Or for the fact that the cities with the strictest gun control in the U.S. have the most violent crime?




    Again, incorrect. The United States poverty rate (depending on your definition) is either slightly higher or slightly LOWER than that of the UK, which also has a lower GDP per capita. Of course, this does not challenge your hypothesis that more relative poverty leads to more crime (since the UK has a higher crime rate), but it is inaccurate to call the United States the "most impoverished" developed nation.


    BTW, you sure seem to have a wealth of faux-statistics misleading you. I noticed you never responded to my post about the "more likely being killed by your own gun" nonsense that gun control advocates disseminate.

    I both agree and dissagree.... the data needs to be collected and analysed in the same way to enusre comparability otherwise it's an apples and pears race. Basically they are non comparable statistics because the defintions behind them are not the same.

    Now a book by Dan Gadner is on Risk goes into the reporting of crime to an extent... it shows how the media sensationalised as increase fear in population.

    Take peodopheilia - the majority of classified child abduction are boyfriend runnign away with slightly under age girls, fathers taking their kids and that type of thing... the proportion of real child abduction is really tiny somethign 40 time less likely than getting run over by a car.

    Interesting the population are terrified of things that there is only a tiny % change of ever happened and relatively balse about real risk to their kids... Road traffic isn't sexy but it kills a huge number of 10 year olds, under aged drink is a real risk, etc etc... but they dont' pay much attention to that.

    For the US guys... OH PLEASE!!!! LOL it seem the US had this deliuded perspective of the UK as being Brideshead Revisited - posh, polite well manners... but not everywhere in the UK is downtown Surrey....

    I have to say I found more manners and common curtesy in the US than ever in the UK (except at work and thats a bit like the 1950's or smaller towns in the UK).

    Crime here is high especally in inner cities... drug use is rife even in small rural communities.... life is no picture of law abidingess. Guns are not legal unless reigstered and stored properly, my ex boyfriend was an arms deal (sounds a lot more interesting than it was) - he was into hunting shooting and fishing, because he was a country boy.... Not a normal thing.

    People who hang out in the country tend to be more likely to go shooting, although kids in the city might get an air rifely....

    Typcally guns arn't normal unless you are in a high crime, socially deprived or getto style culture - relatively small part of the population.

    knifes are easier to get hold of and are more wide spread esp in inner city by teens

    As for the OP original question - hell no, don't encoruage a population to have more oportunty o destroy itself as it has alreay. There are plenty of ways for people to kill each other without handing them equipment to help

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