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  1. #41
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dooraven View Post
    That is true but how does it dispel any notion that Lenin's and Stalin's views were different on terror or torture? Lenin and Stalin did not share all common views - if they did Lenin would have unilaterally preferred him to be his successor. Are you disputing that Lenin may have done things differently than Stalin if he was in his position?
    Of course there were differences between Stalin and Lenin, nobody disputes that. I honestly think the terror may have been worse had Lenin lived longer.

  2. #42
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    The Communist Bloc really was just absolutely atrocious. I now proclaim that 1989 was one the best years in history.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  3. #43
    it's tea time! Walking Tourist's Avatar
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    It wasn't a very good year in El Salvador. On November 16, 1989, six Jesuit priests, their housekeeper, and her daughter were massacred in San Salvador, El Salvador by U.S.-trained Salvadoran military.
    This massacre actually prompted an investigation of U.S. military aid to El Salvador in Congress because many members of Congress had been educated by Jesuits.
    Unfortunately, El Salvador and many other third-world countries were used as pawns by both the United States and the Soviet Union during their decades-long cold war. Many Salvadorans were killed during this civil war, including about 900 men, women, children, and babies in El Mozote (there was only one survivor of the massacre, and, while she was hidden, she saw the military kill her children. the only reason that anyone knows the name "el mozote" is because this woman had the courage to tell her story, despite death threats.). The United States gave massive amounts of military aid to the government, which was controlled by 14 wealthy families.
    So, I would say that both sides in this cold war were equally atrocious.


    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    The Communist Bloc really was just absolutely atrocious. I now proclaim that 1989 was one the best years in history.
    Last edited by Walking Tourist; 12-08-2009 at 12:35 PM. Reason: needed to add something
    I'm a little teapot, short and stout. Here is my handle and here is my spout. Every time I steam up, I give a shout. Just tip me over and pour me out.

  4. #44
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking Tourist View Post
    It wasn't a very good year in El Salvador. On November 16, 1989, six Jesuit priests, their housekeeper, and her daughter were massacred in San Salvador, El Salvador by U.S.-trained Salvadoran military.
    This massacre actually prompted an investigation of U.S. military aid to El Salvador in Congress because many members of Congress had been educated by Jesuits.
    Unfortunately, El Salvador and many other third-world countries were used as pawns by both the United States and the Soviet Union during their decades-long cold war. Many Salvadorans were killed during this civil war, including about 900 men, women, children, and babies in El Mozote (there was only one survivor of the massacre, and, while she was hidden, she saw the military kill her children. the only reason that anyone knows the name "el mozote" is because this woman had the courage to tell her story, despite death threats.). The United States gave massive amounts of military aid to the government, which was controlled by 14 wealthy families.
    So, I would say that both sides in this cold war were equally atrocious.
    I don't like to cheapen the lives of victims of government repression, but you have to look at the domestic victims of the Soviet Union along with victims in Eastern Europe and Asia. The United States is not blameless in the least, but we didn't systematically murder/starve tens of millions of our own citizens, either.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #45
    it's tea time! Walking Tourist's Avatar
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    Certainly, the Soviet Union was a terrible dictatorship. Many Ukrainian starved because of the actions of that dictatorship.
    But the United States also has a bad history. For example, there was slavery, which didn't end until 1865 and was then followed by Jim Crow and the Ku Klux Klan and by segregation. Yes, people were terrorized and killed during those dark times.
    Also, there was the attempt to murder the native Americans (first nations). Many were sent on the trail of tears and their land was stolen. On that forced march in the 1830s, many people died. Of the 15,000 Cherokees who were forced onto the trail of tears (a forced march from Georgia to Oklahoma), more than 4,000 died.
    It may not be tens of millions of dead because there weren't tens of millions of Cherokees, but it can still be described as an attempt at genocide.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I don't like to cheapen the lives of victims of government repression, but you have to look at the domestic victims of the Soviet Union along with victims in Eastern Europe and Asia. The United States is not blameless in the least, but we didn't systematically murder/starve tens of millions of our own citizens, either.
    I'm a little teapot, short and stout. Here is my handle and here is my spout. Every time I steam up, I give a shout. Just tip me over and pour me out.

  6. #46
    it's tea time! Walking Tourist's Avatar
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    The population of El Salvador is only 7.2 million.
    I discussed domestic victims of the United States in a previous post.


    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I don't like to cheapen the lives of victims of government repression, but you have to look at the domestic victims of the Soviet Union along with victims in Eastern Europe and Asia. The United States is not blameless in the least, but we didn't systematically murder/starve tens of millions of our own citizens, either.
    I'm a little teapot, short and stout. Here is my handle and here is my spout. Every time I steam up, I give a shout. Just tip me over and pour me out.

  7. #47
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking Tourist View Post
    It wasn't a very good year in El Salvador. On November 16, 1989, six Jesuit priests, their housekeeper, and her daughter were massacred in San Salvador, El Salvador by U.S.-trained Salvadoran military.
    This massacre actually prompted an investigation of U.S. military aid to El Salvador in Congress because many members of Congress had been educated by Jesuits.
    Unfortunately, El Salvador and many other third-world countries were used as pawns by both the United States and the Soviet Union during their decades-long cold war. Many Salvadorans were killed during this civil war, including about 900 men, women, children, and babies in El Mozote (there was only one survivor of the massacre, and, while she was hidden, she saw the military kill her children. the only reason that anyone knows the name "el mozote" is because this woman had the courage to tell her story, despite death threats.). The United States gave massive amounts of military aid to the government, which was controlled by 14 wealthy families.
    So, I would say that both sides in this cold war were equally atrocious.
    Yes yes I've heard all about the Jesuit episode. There's actually an organization (watched closely by the FBI) that records human rights violations by former students of what used to be called the School of the Americas, which provided US military training to Latin American government militaries. Here's what SOA Watch and the other goons won't tell you:

    For years the Salvadoran rightist government was in conflict with leftist guerrillas. The government were bastards, no doubt about it. But the guerrillas were at least as bad and probably worse.

    And what about those Jesuits? They were absolutely innocent and killed unprovoked, right? Wrong. El Salvadoran military killed them because of information linking those Jesuits to providing intelligence to the leftist guerrillas. And the leftists did similar things--that's war and politics in Latin America.

    Now here's where the US differed from the Soviets. The US used their influence to made the Salvadoran government clean itself up--after helping at the request of the Salvadoran government in the first place. The Soviet model is not like this, and the US never implemented systematic massacres, purges, deportations, or destruction of religious liberties. So when the Soviets and European Communism fell, it was the bad guys who fell and the good guys who won. The US never came close to being as malevolent as the Soviets.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

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