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  1. #31
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dooraven View Post
    Yes but Molotov wasn't which could influence him and try to portray his mentor in a more positive light.
    And that proves what exactly? As I see it, you're just splitting hairs here between the terror conducted under Lenin and the terror conducted under Stalin. The whole framework and basic mentality behind Stalin's terror were laid under Lenin.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    How much of that had to do with philosophy, and how much had to do with technology? It's a bit of a convenient argument to say that the Crusades were not that bad compared to modern conflicts, when they didn't have guns.
    The manner in which technology both develops and is used is often determined by philosophy, not the other way around. Medieval governments simply lacked the resources and power to implement the type of warfare that became a hallmark of later periods even if they had the technology.

    The effective use of guns for example came about because of the revival of Greco-Roman tactical formations during the Renaissance(which was part of a larger trend in reviving Classical concepts); not because the technology was so good at the time.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Dooraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    And that proves what exactly? As I see it, you're just splitting hairs here between the terror conducted under Lenin and the terror conducted under Stalin. The whole framework and basic mentality behind Stalin's terror were laid under Lenin.
    No, I'm just adressing the point where you said "Molotov noted that Lenin was worse that Stalin", I implied that the opinion of one man who could be biased is not proof of anything.

    And yeah, I agree that the foundations of Stalin's terror was founded by Lenin, but what does that have anything to do with Molotov and magnitudes of the atrocities?
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dooraven View Post
    No, I'm just adressing the point where you said "Molotov noted that Lenin was worse that Stalin", I implied that the opinion of one man who could be biased is not proof of anything.

    And yeah, I agree that the foundations of Stalin's terror was founded by Lenin, but what does that have anything to do with Molotov?
    I brought up Molotov's remarks in response to your argument that Stalin's terror was somehow a deviation from Lenin.

  5. #35
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The manner in which technology both develops and is used is often determined by philosophy, not the other way around. Medieval governments simply lacked the resources and power to implement the type of warfare that became a hallmark of later periods even if they had the technology.

    The effective use of guns for example came about because of the revival of Greco-Roman tactical formations during the Renaissance(which was part of a larger trend in reviving Classical concepts); not because the technology was so good at the time.
    I respectfully disagree. You do not have battle lines of the day without flintlock muskets and the replacement of the pike with the bayonet. Contemporary battle formations had been an organic outgrowth of the Greek and Roman tactics up to that point anyway.

    Technology develops in response to practical demands, not in response to philosophical frameworks. We didn't get the flintlock musket because of an appeal to Greco-Roman philosophy, we got it because generals needed an improved form of the matchlock and wheellock guns that existed at the time. There are many practical reasons for development taking so long, primary among them being the Black Death.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Dooraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I brought up Molotov's remarks in response to your argument that Stalin's terror was somehow a deviation from Lenin.
    So you believe that the magnitude and situation of the atrocities during Stalin's and Lenin's time were the same? One was during a civil war and consolidation of power whilst the other was during the peak of the CPSU's rule in Russia. One was an obvious power struggle and the other was a dictatorship. Nevertheless they were both atrocities and are never inexcusable.

    Yeah, I agree that Stalin had massive components of Lenin's brutality but he added much much more of his own personality into Stalinist torture.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I respectfully disagree. You do not have battle lines of the day without flintlock muskets and the replacement of the pike with the bayonet. Contemporary battle formations had been an organic outgrowth of the Greek and Roman tactics up to that point anyway.

    Technology develops in response to practical demands, not in response to philosophical frameworks. We didn't get the flintlock musket because of an appeal to Greco-Roman philosophy, we got it because generals needed an improved form of the matchlock and wheellock guns that existed at the time. There are many practical reasons for development taking so long, primary among them being the Black Death.
    You're only addressing half my argument(at best), which was about development and USE. Just because you have a certain weapon system doesn't necessarily mean you're going to use it, or even use it effectively at that.

    And like it or not, the buck still stops at philosophy not technology. Without philosophical presuppositions to guide it, technological developments won't get very far. Sure you can claim that technology is a response to practical considerations, but you still need to determine how exactly you're going to respond to such considerations - and that is determined by ones philosophical precepts.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dooraven View Post
    So you believe that the magnitude and situation of the atrocities during Stalin's and Lenin's time were the same? One was during a civil war and consolidation of power whilst the other was during the peak of the CPSU's rule in Russia. One was an obvious power struggle and the other was a dictatorship. Nevertheless they were both atrocities and are never inexcusable.
    I'm well aware of the differing circumstances; but you fail to note that Lenin had a persistent obsession with the concept of revolutionary terror and violence which existed even before the Bolsheviks took over.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Dooraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I'm well aware of the differing circumstances; but you fail to note that Lenin had a persistent obsession with the concept of revolutionary terror and violence which existed even before the Bolsheviks took over.
    That is true but how does it dispel any notion that Lenin's and Stalin's views were different on terror or torture? Lenin and Stalin did not share all common views - if they did Lenin would have unilaterally preferred him to be his successor. Are you disputing that Lenin may have done things differently than Stalin if he was in his position?
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  10. #40
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    I would highly suggest reading The Dynamics of Military Revolution, 13002050 by Williamson Murray and MacGregor Knox in regards to the issue of technology and military operations. A major argument of this piece is that the greatest changes in military operations have actually come about primarily because of social and political factors, not technological ones(which played a more secondary role).

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