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  1. #21
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    But just for the sake of this game, I'd say the most tragic events of History are the advent of Christianity (and its early centuries of intolerance and obscurantism = the Dark Ages), and Hegel.
    Yeah - of course you would say that.

  2. #22
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    I just went to my great aunt's funeral. I didn't realize that her and my great uncle's engagement party and newspaper announcement were on pearl harbor day. How crazy. I couldn't ever remember what day Pearl Harbor was, but I think I will remember now.
    I love coincidences!!
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  3. #23
    Senior Member Dooraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That is just silly. Communism was terrible from Marx on, and Lenin was a murderous bastard, too.
    Looking back over it, yeah that was quite foolish of me to say. I rephrase that what I mean is "Communism was turned into a dictatorship under Stalin".

    You could say that the philosophy of Communism was screwed from Marx, true but I'm not going argue philosophies where our views will be very different.What I meant was the actions of Lenin, whist atrocious during the civil war are no where near what Stalin did. Stalin converted the "beloved" Communism into to another dictatorship, his rule was dictatorship behind the veil of Communism and not really keeping to the promise of power to the masses that Communism advocates.

    I do acknowledge that Lenin did some very very atrocious crimes like the Red Terror against the Tambov Rebellion, the brutal slaying of the Makhnovists and many other disgusting items, revolutions are always bloody and it is the fault of both sides but what Stalin did was take Lenin's atrocities to a whole new level.

    But this doesn't change the fact that a revolution was badly needed in Russia, unfortuantley the Bolshevik Revolution while started with promise turned into a massive dictatorship.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dooraven View Post
    Looking back over it, yeah that was quite foolish of me to say. I rephrase that what I mean is "Communism was turned into a dictatorship under Stalin".

    You could say that the philosophy of Communism was screwed from Marx, true but I'm not going argue philosophies where our views will be very different.What I meant was the actions of Lenin, whist atrocious during the civil war are no where near what Stalin did. Stalin converted the "beloved" Communism into to another dictatorship, his rule was dictatorship behind the veil of Communism and not really keeping to the promise of power to the masses that Communism advocates.

    I do acknowledge that Lenin did some very very atrocious crimes like the Red Terror against the Tambov Rebellion, the brutal slaying of the Makhnovists and many other disgusting items, revolutions are always bloody and it is the fault of both sides but what Stalin did was take Lenin's atrocities to a whole new level.

    But this doesn't change the fact that a revolution was badly needed in Russia, unfortuantley the Bolshevik Revolution while started with promise turned into a massive dictatorship.
    Molotov actually noted years later that Lenin was far more cruel than Stalin.

  5. #25
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yeah - of course you would say that.
    Of course, but that's the truth.

    The old heathen Empires (whether Egyptian, Babylonian, Harappan, Gupta, Chinese, Persian, Roman, Aztec, Incan et caetera) didn't bother what their subjects were thinking, what custom they were following, what language they were speaking, or what God they were worshipping. Once conquered, the subjects were ruled, and they only had to ackowledge this obvious fact: that was enough. Most of the time, the role of the empire was only to provide order and a strict political hierarchy.

    Christianity, on the other hand, was the first collectivist/proselyte religion. With Christianity, you discover for the first time in history intolerance, bigotry, religious wars waged only to convert people. It means people not only had to submit to the power of their new ruler, but most of all they had to drop their identity, forget who they were, or disappear. For instance, Science was almost entirely destroyed or forgotten, every time it contradicted the new dogmas, hence the "Dark Ages". Because Christianity didn't wanted to rule, it wanted to CONTROL what people thought, and once the Pandora's box was opened, it quickly led to Islam, Imperialism, Ideology, Totalitarianism, Bolshevism, Fascism, Nazism, et caetera.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #26
    Senior Member Dooraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Molotov actually noted years later that Lenin was far more cruel than Stalin.
    Maybe, but he is just one man and was a protege of Stalin
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    The old heathen Empires didn't bother what their subjects were thinking, what language they were speaking, what God they were worshipping. The subjects were ruled, and they only had to ackowledge this obvious fact: that was enough.
    The basic rule was to worship the Emperor as a god, and after that nobody cared. The Jews were the only exception in this regards, who were allowed to pray for the Emperor. However, the Romans were not always tolerant in religious matters. A clear example of this were the Druids in Gaul. There's even some records of mathematicians being persecuted for religious reasons. Astrologers were also the victims of political persecution at times.

    Nevertheless, the modern conception of religious freedom as we know it today derives from Christian belief in free will. Already in the 13th century, St. Thomas Aquinas noted that unbelievers should not be forced to become Christians because that violated their free will before God. Centuries earlier, St. Ambrose rebuked the emperor for his slaughtering of pagans at Thessalonica. In wake of Charlemagne's brutal suppression of the Saxons, the English theologian Alcuin of York also rebuked such actions as contrary to proper Christian behavior, stating: "Faith is a free act of the will, not a forced act. We must appeal to the conscience, not compel it by violence. You can force people to be baptised, but you cannot force them to believe."

    This had the long-term effect of easing of many repressions against the Saxons, including the abolishing of the death pentality for paganism in 797 AD.

    Christianity, on the other hand, was the first collectivist/proselyte religion. With Christianity, you discover for the first time in history intolerance, bigotry, religious wars waged only to convert people.
    Yes, but please note that an important aspect of that was the introduction of the concept of fighting for ones beliefs as opposed for mere economic or political gain. As Rousseau himself noted:
    "Fanaticism, though sanguinary and cruel, is nevertheless a great and powerful passion, which exalts the heart of man, which inspires him with a contempt of death, which gives him prodigious energy, and which only requires to judiciously directed in order to produce the most sublime virtues. On the other hand, irreligion, and a reasoning and philosophic spirit in general, strengthens the attachment to life, debases the soul and renders it effeminate, concentrates all the passions in the meanness of private interest, in the abject motive of self, and thus silently saps the real foundations of society; for so trifling are the points in which private interests are united, that they will never counterbalance those in which they oppose one another."
    The crusading spirit that drove many medieval Frenchmen to march towards the Holy Land in the name of Christ was roughly the same one that drove Frenchmen centuries later to march across Europe in the name of Liberté, Equalité, Fraternité.

    It means people not only had to submit to the power of their new ruler, but most of all they had to drop their identity, forget who they were, or die.
    That's not true actually. Christianity actually played an important role in both the preservation and development of many of Europe's cultures. You can't possibly talk about Irish history and culture without reference to St. Patrick, nor that of Slavic peoples without mentioning Ss. Cyril and Methodius(who also developed the Cyrillic alphabet). Within Christian theology, we call this inculturation where the faith is adapted towards the native customs of a people.

    For instance, Science was almost entirely destroyed or forgotten, every time it contradicted the new dogmas, hence the "Dark Ages".
    It's called the "Dark Ages" because of a lack of written records. Same thing applies to the period around 1200 B.C., which is also referred to as a "Dark Age". Concerning science during this period, I've already addressed this before with you:

    "The contribution of the religious culture of the early Middle Ages to the scientific movement was thus one of preservation and transmission. The monasteries served as the transmitters of literacy and a thin version of the Classical tradition(including science or natural philosophy) through a period when literacy and scholarship were severely threatened. Without them, Western Europe would not have more science, but less."
    --David C. Lindberg The Beginnings of Western Science: The European Scientific Tradition in Philosophical, Religious, and Institutional Context, 600 BC to AD 1450 pg.157


    Because, Christianity didn't wanted to rule, it wanted to CONTROL what people thought, and once the Pandora's box was opened, it quickly led to Islam, Imperialism, Totalitarianism, Bolshevism, Fascism, Nazism, et caetera.
    I already showed above that's not entirely the case. You can't really draw a direct connection between Christianity and all that; it's a little more complex than that.

    It should also be noted that much of the brutalities commonly associated with religion(Christianity in this particular case) actually occured in wake of the emergence of modernity. Whether you're talking about wars of religion(the bloodiest occuring in the 17th century) or the emergence of the totalitarian state - which is largely a development of the absolutist state that originated in the Renaissance and which was taken to new heights with "Enlightened Despotism" of the 18th century.

  8. #28
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dooraven View Post
    Maybe, but he is just one man and was a protege of Stalin
    And Stalin was a protege of Lenin.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    It should also be noted that much of the brutalities commonly associated with religion(Christianity in this particular case) actually occured in wake of the emergence of modernity. Whether you're talking about wars of religion(the bloodiest occuring in the 17th century) or the emergence of the totalitarian state - which is largely a development of the absolutist state that originated in the Renaissance and which was taken to new heights with "Enlightened Despotism" of the 18th century.
    How much of that had to do with philosophy, and how much had to do with technology? It's a bit of a convenient argument to say that the Crusades were not that bad compared to modern conflicts, when they didn't have guns.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Dooraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    And Stalin was a protege of Lenin.
    Yes but Molotov wasn't which could influence him and try to portray his mentor in a more positive light.
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