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  1. #1
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Default One-way tolerance

    I'll give an example of what I mean:

    I know quite a few vegetarians and vegans. I was raised on a farm that kept and slaughtered animals, but as a vegetarian for medical reasons that became obsolete by the age of 16. I chose at 18 to eat meat, for long and hard thought-out reasons of my own that I still believe in.

    Most veggies and vegans I know are cool. They're not preachy or militant, they just make their choice and stick with it, and don't judge or comment on other people's choices.

    But there are also quite a few who behave in this way: you have to respect their veggie/veganism. You have to support it, and not make snide or disparaging remarks about it. You have to listen when they tell you (often unsolicited) their reasons, and whether you agree or not, you're not to say anything bad about it because that would be "intolerant". If you counter one of their reasons with an opposing reason of your own as to why you eat meat, they get het up and highly emotional about it, and it becomes an Argument, wherein they object to your lack of respect for their views.

    Meanwhile, they're allowed to rant, moralise and criticise the entire concept of eating meat whenever they like, wherever they like. They're allowed to say, amongst a group of friends, most of whom eat meat, how physically sick and disgusted they felt at seeing the hog roast at the fair, and how they can't comprehend what level of moral bankruptcy would make a person accept that "travesty" as a normal part of life, much less partake in it. IOW, they're allowed to claim the moral high ground and try to make others feel guilty, or like they have to justify their choices to them. And that's okay.

    I experienced a similar thing many times as a white Muslim in the UK, where this made me a member of a majority, "infiltrating" a minority. I had to sit countless times and listen to my people, my home and the culture I grew up in, bad-mouthed in the most ignorant and bigoted of ways, and I was expected to agree. And yet, if I as a white person had said anything negative about Islamic culture amongst these people, I'd have been branded "racist" and "intolerant", however valid my point might've been.

    Has anyone else encountered other examples of this? How do you handle it? What reaction does it cause in you?

    I've a feeling that there's a particular kind of personality that's prone to this sort of behaviour; it requires a particular worldview that, I think, transcends MBTI type etc., but I'm having trouble thinking of what to pin it down to.

    I'm tired of being put in the dock by these sorts of people in these sorts of situations, and I'm wondering if anyone might have found a way of dealing with it that doesn't involve either defending a choice you shouldn't have to defend, pretending to agree with something you don't, or keeping your mouth shut and allowing somebody to badmouth your principles and get away with it.

    Or is it just that when your choice happens to coincide with the majority, you just have to accept that members of minorities will approach you with chips on their shoulders from time to time, automatically seeing you as "the enemy" and believing that they know your reasons for your choices?

    Thoughts?
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  2. #2
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Or maybe y'all are too chicken to give your thoughts, in case you get called intolerant
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  3. #3
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    The nature of the vegetarian scenario and the Islamic one are different.

    The first one is simply moral conviction in action. If someone believes something to be fundamentally good, and it's opposite or absence bad, then of course they expect it to be tolerated and the opposite to not be tolerated.

    The second one sounds more like a case of social perception and stereo-typing. It's a matter of symbolic interaction. Your group is framed as being in a dominant, commanding position. As such, attacks against your group is viewed as self-defense, attacks against their group is seen as oppression. This happens a lot with the minority/majority relationship.
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  4. #4
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    Great thread! *puts on thinking cap*

  5. #5
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The nature of the vegetarian scenario and the Islamic one are different.
    Obviously, they're different in the respects you mentioned. I still think they share in common though, that it's about a minority believing they have the automatic right to deference from the majority. Not just to tolerance in the sense of "being allowed to do what they choose without harrassment", but they want more than that. They want to have immunity from taking responsibility for the consequences and responses their views create in others.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Great thread! *puts on thinking cap*
    *eagerly awaits*
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  6. #6
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Some people just like being a pain in the ass and dictating to others for the pure thrill of it. Many in anti smokers/vegan/politically correct crowd have essential the same nazi/puritan sadism. I think most don't give a hoot about what they preach, they just want to rain on peoples parades.
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  7. #7
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    People in the first world love to become oppressed victims, it gives them a moral high ground, like a lot of the idiots in the US and Europe who become Muslims or Falun Gong-ers. Mostly they do it because they live extremely comfortable lives and need to invent adversity so they can find meaning. White guilt is another side effect of this.

    For those of you who are truly into Falun Gong, Islam, and White guilt I apologize for lumping you in with the idiots.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    People in the first world love to become oppressed victims, it gives them a moral high ground, like a lot of the idiots in the US and Europe who become Muslims or Falun Gong-ers. Mostly they do it because they live extremely comfortable lives and need to invent adversity so they can find meaning. White guilt is another side effect of this.

    For those of you who are truly into Falun Gong, Islam, and White guilt I apologize for lumping you in with the idiots.
    Okay, yeah this happens. But what about when actual genuine prejudice and unfair treatment of majority group member by minority group member is actually taking place? Do you deny that this happens, or do you think that it's not an issue when/if it does? IOW, are you suggesting that the member of the majority should just accept it as his lot when this happens, and "quit whining"?
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  9. #9
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    Obviously, they're different in the respects you mentioned. I still think they share in common though, that it's about a minority believing they have the automatic right to deference from the majority. Not just to tolerance in the sense of "being allowed to do what they choose without harrassment", but they want more than that. They want to have immunity from taking responsibility for the consequences and responses their views create in others.
    And what I was saying is that I think that mentality is more accurate of the latter scenario, while things wouldn't be very different with the vegetarian be they a minority or a majority.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #10
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    People in the first world love to become oppressed victims, it gives them a moral high ground, like a lot of the idiots in the US and Europe who become Muslims or Falun Gong-ers. Mostly they do it because they live extremely comfortable lives and need to invent adversity so they can find meaning. White guilt is another side effect of this.
    QFT

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