User Tag List

First 4567 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 61

  1. #51
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    When the non-dominant side's opinion is adopted by the dominant side, it then becomes the dominant opinion. Recognition of illogicality is just one way of this happening.
    Typo. The non-dominant's side opinion may be non-dominant for a good reason, i.e., it's not a very informed one.


    What makes earnestness an undeniably good thing, in the first place?
    It isn't necessarily a good thing, but false earnestness is almost always bad. It lowers the level of debate, and it's just not good policy. Being honest is better.


    How are you going to have productive debate when the two sides don't offer each other a baseline level of social consideration, and constantly offend each other in their naked assertions of the other side's folly? These considerations certainly differ given the forum - internet conversations tend to be more brazen than their real-life counterparts, for example.
    Are they that different from their real-life counterparts? I don't feel any less brazen in person than online. I won't follow someone around to harangue him or her, but I won't act like an uninformed opinion is valid if I am having a serious discussion with someone.


    Once again, it's unwise to mistake what one thinks should be the case for what actually is the case. Majorities and minorities do have different rules, and the rules applying to the minorities are either imposed by the majority or form in response to the influence of the majority.
    You're talking about social pressure. I am talking about rules for civilized debate. The same rules apply to everyone in civilized debate, majority or minority.


    Even the process of trying to change the majority's rules are subsumed under its pressure. Take the Civil Rights Movement, for example. Its biggest gains came under non-violent tactics appealing to the majority's sense of equity. When the majority came to its own cultural determination that it no longer approved of the previous structure and rules, those began to change. However, as soon as the movement became more violent and militant, it took almost no time for increased repression based on issues of "law and order".
    Where is the issue there?


    Voicing one's opinion in the real world is fine. Voicing one's opinion and being a prick about it is another. No one is forcing you to respect someone else's opinion. It's just that cultural sensibilities indicate that it's not a good thing to be a douchebag about that fact. Once again, that doesn't apply if you think that opinion is ultimately harmful to others.
    You can be a douchebag even when you think an opinion is ultimately harmful to others. Fred Phelps honestly believes that homosexuality is ultimately harmful to society. That doesn't mean he isn't a douchebag.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #52
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I read the OP and just responded to this without reading everything else yet, so forgive me if this has already been covered...

    As someone with a self-imposed limited diet, I am tired of always having to defend myself. I am a vegetarian and mostly vegan. My reasons for not eating meat were just because it grossed me out as a kid and I am a picky eater. Now, my health issues have made me cut more things out.

    At a restaurant, if someone asks for a dish with no brussel sprouts, no one blinks an eye. If I ask for a dish made without chicken stock, suddenly I am forced to defend myself against a wide gamut of political beliefs that have been assigned to me. I care not for the animal's lives, I could give a shit about the hormones pumped into meat. I simply don't eat what I don't like. I've never preached a word of my "beliefs" to anyone but yet I am combated constantly. People assign arguments to me and force me to argue them. It's fucking annoying.

    Why does anyone give a damn what anyone else eats? Just eat your own food and mind your own damn business. The militancy goes both ways and it's annoying, on both sides.

    Ok, I'll read the rest of the thread now. /rant

    EDIT: Sorry - didn't offer any advice... I simply tell people to live their lives in whatever way will make them happy and allow me to do the same. Basically, that's my polite way of saying FOAD before I actually am forced to utter those words. Simple.
    Yeah, you sound like how I feel about being religious. It's a major weirdness here in secular Europe, as is abstaining from alcohol whilst not being a teetotaller.

    I have my spiritual beliefs and I try to follow them. I concentrate on making sure I live up to them as well as I can, and I don't force them on others or judge others by them - I only judge myself by my own beliefs; if I judge others at all, then it's according to how they live up to their own beliefs. I don't talk about my faith unless asked to, and even then I'm hesitant. For the same reason you describe: I'm sick of having all these dogmatic and political reasons pinned onto me that I'm then expected to defend.

    Same goes with alcohol - I choose to avoid it because there are quite simply too many fucking calories in it, and I have a hard time keeping my weight on an even keel. I don't want to bust a gut exercising just to cram a whole day's worth of meal calories in, all from a couple of drinks that are totally unnecessary. I like to drink - I love wine, I love beer, and I disagree with the concept of teetotalism - but hereabouts people drink like fish, and you're painted as some kind of puritannical, holier than thou freak if you just say "no thanks, can I have some orange juice instead?" And yet if I'd said "no red for me - have you got any rosť?" there wouldn't have been any issue.

    These, and the views I expressed in the bisexuals thread ought to demonstrate that I'm no stranger to life as a minority group member, tarred with the same brush as the worst elements of that group.

    However, that's not the point of this thread

    I'm talking here about the minority group members who are bigoted and forceful with their views - the opposite of you and I. These people are the reason why we get this kind of shit. As a member of majority groups (being white, eating meat, etc), I don't disrespect or badger the vegan/whatever. As a minority, I don't evangelise or otherwise force my views on the majority.

    I think though, that at least half the time, the reason why the majority might behave as you describe is because of previous experiences with people in whatever minority group we're currently being identified with.
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
    Preferences: 20% Extravert, 98% Intuitive, 68% Thinker, 17% Perceiving

  3. #53
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    If the other viewpoint is valid to you, are you allowed to say so? Or is it useless, because whether it is or not, you're part of the majority and therefore not capable of any good or sincere thoughts or actions?
    I'm suspiscious of quantitative evaluation of values, one sort of fool says something is true because a majority believe it and another sort that its true because a minority do and its as simple as that.

    However, in terms of minority-majority relations and values, I would say that I do sometimes think there cant be parity or affirming the minority point of view really does require suspending disbelief and ignoring plain fact.

    This is how I feel about arguments about opposing "heteronormative" society for instance but its probably also applicable to other minority majority value complexes, culture or lifestyles, such as vegetarianism.

  4. #54
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm suspiscious of quantitative evaluation of values, one sort of fool says something is true because a majority believe it and another sort that its true because a minority do and its as simple as that.

    However, in terms of minority-majority relations and values, I would say that I do sometimes think there cant be parity or affirming the minority point of view really does require suspending disbelief and ignoring plain fact.

    This is how I feel about arguments about opposing "heteronormative" society for instance but its probably also applicable to other minority majority value complexes, culture or lifestyles, such as vegetarianism.
    I see what you mean, although I didn't mean affirming the view that I don't agree with, but more affirming their right to hold it, and my valuing of them as a person regardless of whether I agree with it or not.

    And I genuinely do value the humanity of every single person, regardless. I couldn't care less if you hold completely opposite views to me on every single thing - you're still a human being and therefore I will still treat you politely and considerately wherever I reasonably can. I don't think it's too much to ask the same in return - at least the external part, if they can't manage the internal.
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
    Preferences: 20% Extravert, 98% Intuitive, 68% Thinker, 17% Perceiving

  5. #55
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    Very interesting Proximo, although in my experience thinking like that, for me at least, is aspirational, let alone acting like that.

    I generally see myself as pretty reflective, insightful and thoughtful as a result of studiousness, professional training and luck but even I tend to find that I'll begin to mirror others if I'm exposed to them consistently and often enough and their biases will contaminate my humanist conscience.

    Between that and having so much exposure to the cognitively challenged, developmentally deficit, in my line of work and so much insight into people that their insecurities, conflicts and lack of conscientiousness glars like a blinding sun at me, I tend to go on misanthropic bents a lot of the time.

    I'm left feeling that humanity is a mere thing.

  6. #56
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Socionics
    ENTp
    Posts
    6,387

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    I think though, that at least half the time, the reason why the majority might behave as you describe is because of previous experiences with people in whatever minority group we're currently being identified with.

    You know, I think it's bunch of angry people who grew up being force fed dead animals when they were kids and now they are lashing back out at their symbolic parents. Being oppressed in any form leads some people to become militant when they finally find a place where they belong (e.g. any particular "movement" like PETA) or some acceptance.

    The behavior is outlandish and horrifying, but I can kind of understand the psychology behind it. It makes you wonder why they were even forced to eat meat or to confess their sins in the first place. Why do people insist on pushing each other?

  7. #57
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Very interesting Proximo, although in my experience thinking like that, for me at least, is aspirational, let alone acting like that...
    I know what you mean - could be, if I'm older than you, I've just had longer to integrate it into my instinctive thought pattern... or just that I've been deeply involved in monastic life, which has given me the opportunity to spend long periods of time completely devoted to fully internalising concepts that began as mere intellectual acknowledgements. Is this the part where I get assumed to be holier than thou because I mention I've achieved something good that many don't, through the help of my faith?

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    You know, I think it's bunch of angry people who grew up being force fed dead animals when they were kids and now they are lashing back out at their symbolic parents. Being oppressed in any form leads some people to become militant when they finally find a place where they belong (e.g. any particular "movement" like PETA) or some acceptance.

    The behavior is outlandish and horrifying, but I can kind of understand the psychology behind it. It makes you wonder why they were even forced to eat meat or to confess their sins in the first place. Why do people insist on pushing each other?
    If they, as a child, had expressed themselves that they didn't want to eat meat any more but was forced to continue by their parents, then that's one thing and that's bad, true. Though, still doesn't entitle one to take that anger out on everybody else - particularly a host who's gone to a lot of trouble to respect their decision and accommodate it.

    But if it was all just a sort of automatic process that even they themselves didn't think of as "wrong" until they made a decision later in life, then that's sort of the equivalent of hating somebody who encouraged you to smoke in the days before they knew it was bad for you, judging them in the same way as though they had encouraged you, deliberately in the knowledge that it was bad for you.

    It seems to me to come from a stubborn refusal, or perhaps inability or unwillingness, of person A to see person B's actions as they were from B's point of view, but instead judging them as though person B were acting against A's wishes, even in possession of all the info currently in A's view. Seeing not "my parents had no idea how I'd feel about eating meat someday in the future, and just fed and looked after me in whatever way their limited knowledge and experience was able to figure was best", but "my parents deliberately force fed me with dead animals against my (future) will!", which seems rather unbalanced and irrational, to me.

    Perhaps it's a lack of forgiveness that's going on. And even, that this non-forgiveness that's ostensibly against their parents/whoever, is actually against themselves, projected onto the parents. If they feel ashamed themselves, that they used to eat meat, or whatever, I guess it's easier to blame the parents, however irrational, than to just accept it as done in ignorance, in the past, and forgive themselves. If they did though, I'm sure they'd be less angry at the rest of the world.
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
    Preferences: 20% Extravert, 98% Intuitive, 68% Thinker, 17% Perceiving

  8. #58
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    Prox, I wouldnt assume anything about you, I'm the same age as you and have spent the same amount of time internalising concepts, all the same I still experience the contamination of my thinking or acting by those of others.

    Its one of the few things which has driven my interest in social psychology and more so sociology.

  9. #59
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Yes I notice one-war tolerance quite a lot when it comes to many of my religious and political views, so I can easily relate to your experiences proximo. I can only say that true tolerance is indeed a two-way deal, in which people with opposing views deal with each other with respect. That's often the ideal I try to aspire towards, where I give others their say and expect it in return.

  10. #60
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Socionics
    ENTp
    Posts
    6,387

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    It seems to me to come from a stubborn refusal, or perhaps inability or unwillingness, of person A to see person B's actions as they were from B's point of view, but instead judging them as though person B were acting against A's wishes, even in possession of all the info currently in A's view. Seeing not "my parents had no idea how I'd feel about eating meat someday in the future, and just fed and looked after me in whatever way their limited knowledge and experience was able to figure was best", but "my parents deliberately force fed me with dead animals against my (future) will!", which seems rather unbalanced and irrational, to me.

    See, the challenging thing is to not fall into the same behavior as them - assigning arguments to them that they must defend. I think the only thing you can do is totally ignore people like that, or take it on a case by case basis. Everyone will have different reasons for their behavior but you are totally allowed to call them out on being disrespectful to you, regardless of their reasons. I normally just try to make people as uncomfortable as possible when they cross boundaries with me.

    them: "why don't you eat meat? where do you get your protein?"
    me: "the iron and protein have a negative effect on my chemotherapy"

    them: "you are in your 30s already, when are you going to have children??"
    me: "I had to have an emergency hysterectomy when I was 17. My hopes and dreams were ripped out with my uterus" *wipes a dignified tear*

Similar Threads

  1. May I please purchase a one-way ticket?
    By Eluded_One in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 04-02-2011, 07:48 PM
  2. Replies: 36
    Last Post: 02-07-2011, 01:50 AM
  3. More than one way to skin a cat
    By runvardh in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 07-19-2009, 01:48 PM
  4. One for the experts.
    By Xander in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 07-03-2008, 05:29 PM
  5. Which one of you is.....
    By targobelle in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-25-2007, 10:42 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO