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  1. #181
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post

    As for people feeling betrayed about Obama, on this issue he doesn't deserve that (and I'm not one to cut him any undeserved slack); he made it a point to differentiate between the two wars from the beginning-anybody voting for him should have already known that.
    This is correct. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I guess I do kinda 'get' it. Kinda.
    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay one invincible summer."
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    A Christian's life may be the only Bible some people ever read.
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    "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them" Maya Angelou.
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  2. #182
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Alliances often shift and change in politics and warfare.



    Actually it is quite abstract, since we almost any government could be accused of supporting terrorists or some sort or another. As for exact form of government; that's really of no concern for us. As long as it provides stablity for the country and is not hostile to us. Democracy or no, who cares. In fact I dare say that liberal democracy is the last thing Afghanistan needs.
    1. Yeah, and? They often don't change when you want them. We certainly can't afford to bank on Taliban ousting Al Qaeda ops just because it costs us to prevent it happening.

    2. Anyone can be accused of anything. The difference is where there is proof. Taliban government gave refuge to Al Qaeda ops and refused to cooperate with US leading up to the war. Clearly these are bad guys. There really isn't much mystery behind it : if a government is tangibly harboring and supporting terrorists, it obviously has to suffer consequences. Form of government is less important than stopping the Taliban, within certain limits. Not everyone will agree with your estimation of what is best there. US will promote democracy, because democracies tend to be better long-term allies.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    1. Yeah, and? They often don't change when you want them. We certainly can't afford to bank on Taliban ousting Al Qaeda ops just because it costs us to prevent it happening.
    You can try playing one faction off the other, among other things. A good analogy would be how we played rival Communist factions against one another during the Cold War. We did this with Tito's regime in Yugoslavia(when he broke with Stalin's camp), and later with Mao - despite the fact we fought Mao's armies during the Korean War. In fact in the 70s the Soviets and Chinese competed for our favor; which resulted in a normalization of relations with China and detente with the Soviets.

    Form of government is less important than stopping the Taliban, within certain limits. Not everyone will agree with your estimation of what is best there.
    Maybe not, but my view is rather consistent with American forgeign policy in the past and basic principles of realpolitik.

    US will promote democracy, because democracies tend to be better long-term allies.
    That can only be said of postwar Western democracies. Outside of the Western world, our most reliable allies have actually been authoritarian regimes.

  4. #184
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You can try playing one faction off the other, among other things. A good analogy would be how we played rival Communist factions against one another during the Cold War. We did this with Tito's regime in Yugoslavia(when he broke with Stalin's camp), and later with Mao - despite the fact we fought Mao's armies during the Korean War. In fact in the 70s the Soviets and Chinese competed for our favor; which resulted in a normalization of relations with China and detente with the Soviets.


    Maybe not, but my view is rather consistent with American forgeign policy in the past and basic principles of realpolitik.



    That can only said of postwar Western democracies. Outside of the Western world, our most reliable allies have actually been authoritarian regimes.
    1. You can try to break up Taliban insurgents by taking advantage of ethnic splits. But the fact remains that the Taliban as a whole has cooperated with Al Qaeda and invited US intervention by refusing to comply with our requests after 9/11. They shouldn't be given any more chances, especially since they still try to use violence to regain power. The US needs to send the message that terrorism will not be accepted. Period.

    2. That statement has mixed validity. Look at US involvement in Nicaragua 1920s-1930s. We worked toward establishing free and fair elections, even though the elected party there was not pro-US. When we are involved in a liberation or occupation of a country, we tend to want democracy. If an authoritarian regime is the lesser of two evils, then we go with it. But if there is opportunity for something better, we often go with that.

    3. Philippines. Japan. South Korea.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  5. #185
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The problem is that leaves us a with an abstract goal that doesn't really mean anything in terms of actual military or geo-political strategy. I mean installing a government that's non-hostile to America - ok, that's better but still poses a great challenge for us. The sad fact is that whatever government we install will have some ties to the Taliban. Even many members of the Afghan army were former members of the Taliban and other warlord militia.
    There were many high ranking officers in the German military who were part of the Nazi Party, but weren't die hard Nazis (in fact, some were repulsed by a lot of Nazi ideology). The thing is, for one to be a high ranking military officer in Germany during mid 30s-mid 40s, he had to be a member of the Nazi party. Same thing with the USSR, all officers were supposed to be members of the Communist Party - it was a prerequisite, even if the only thing they cared about was to be Russian soldiers, not communists.

    My point is, just because a person was at one point wearing Nazi, Communists, Ba'athists, Taliban insignia, that didn't automatically made them hostile and useless to American interests.

    However, when we take over, none of those names and loyalties (to the same idea with a different name), should be allowed to remain. If we let Taliban stay in power after fighting with them, that will basically tell the world that the shit they did before (openly harboring Al Quida) was forgiven by America.

    And obviously, we can't have that.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  6. #186
    Sniffles
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    I'm exhausted from the day, so possibly tomorrow I'll respond to Take Five and Edgar.

  7. #187
    Senior Member evilrobot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Umm, I think it was less of "letting Emperor remain in power", and more of "deciding not to execute him along with the rest of the high command". After the American occupation, the Emperor was stripped of all his power (unconditional surrender) and divinity (we published a photo of him with McArthur, told him to do "meet and greet" with the local populace to show them that he was just as human as the rest of them, etc).

    What youíre leaving out, genius, is that the US also wanted to demonstrate itís new weapon to the world, especially the Russians. The grim reality is that it worked; nukes prevented the Cold War from becoming WW 3, because each side feared annihilation. Our latest enemies, however, certain of being rewared with paradise in the afterlife for their service to jihad, are untroubled by their own destruction. Indeed, they welcome it.
    X___________________________________

    If things are not what they seem, and we are forever reminded that this is the caseóthen it must also be observed that enough of us ignore this truth to keep the world from collapsing. ĖThomas Ligotti, The Mystics of Muelenberg

  8. #188
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    It's been almost 5 years since troops were deployed in Afghanistan. What's the latest situation there?

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