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  1. #161
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    Wait. I thought Edgar was Putin.

  2. #162
    Member Chuckums's Avatar
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    Yes, that avatar is Putin as a youngster.

  3. #163
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Seems like this place has gone a little cookoo for coco puffs
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  4. #164
    Senior Member evilrobot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Isaac View Post
    Yes, that avatar is Putin as a youngster.

    So thatís his idol, huh? I was a Yeltsin man myself. Never mind that the guy almost nuked us once when he was drunk and the Russkies mistook a Norwegian rocket for a US missile attack.
    X___________________________________

    If things are not what they seem, and we are forever reminded that this is the caseóthen it must also be observed that enough of us ignore this truth to keep the world from collapsing. ĖThomas Ligotti, The Mystics of Muelenberg

  5. #165
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quick question for those arguing earlier in the post, it's probably derailed from there buuut I didn't have time to read through every last page this time =3

    Of those stating "the price of failure"... how do yeu define "victory"?

    Yeu literally CAN'T kill off an idea, nor a method of thought. Yeu can't stop people who WANT to fight each other from doing so... most of the troops in Afghanistan right now aren't even there for the sake of fighting actual insurgents and such, but as a military police force because the tribes that live there themselves will be at each others throats the second they don't have guns pointed at them.

    Yeu can not achieve any 'true' victory in Afghanistan. Yeu can't kill off everyone who's going to cause a problem because virtually everyone there is the problem because the tribes hate each other with such a passion. Yeu can't pull troops out to let them run their own government, because no government would be accepted; if yeu let one tribe have total power, they'd abuse it and it'd lead to a massacre. If yeu tried to get the tribes to work together, they'd refuse to accept any of the others' right to rule or make law, and nothing would ever get done because if yeu didn't have the officer from the right tribe show up to resolve a conflict, their authority would not be accepted. Yeu can't keep the surrounding regions from conflicts which spill over into Afghanistan's boarders either. Yeu can't stabilize the region from that one spot alone, and it's probably one of the worst places to start trying to stabilize a region since there's really no power base nor resources there to force the other outlying countries to play nice. In short, there is no victory to be had short of keeping them from falling into a civil war or letting the taliban or whichever other tin pot dictator chooses to run in and take over if yeu leave. Flat out, that country NEEDS someone with guns pointed at their heads to get them to stop killing each other, and the second yeu take the guns away from their heads, they'll be doing it to each other for yeu. As such, the only 'victory' yeu can ever hope to achieve there is total absolute culture absorption which will take literally decades, and may very well fall flat, and even that's not really a 'victory' in the true sense, as yeu'll have essentially conquered them, and destroyed their culture and all that made them who they were to 'save' them, meaning essentially yeu killed off an entire race and culture.

    So ... yeah... where's this supposed victory? Yeu can't claim "it's better than failure!" if there's zero opportunity to have anything OTHER than failure, which implies there must be some kind of accomplishable goal that would count as a 'victory' within the foreseeable future... so whot is it? O.o

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilrobot View Post
    So thatís his idol, huh? I was a Yeltsin man myself. Never mind that the guy almost nuked us once when he was drunk and the Russkies mistook a Norwegian rocket for a US missile attack.
    And I thought it was just because Yeltsin was pissed off the Secret Service rounded him up, after having wandered off butt assed naked in DC...looking for a Pizza at 4 am.

  7. #167
    Senior Member iamathousandapples's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Yes, and we've fought two wars with them. The last one has lasted for 8 years. That goes a bit beyond "retaliation."
    I said at the least, being the least we could possibly do, not the right thing or what we should do. We should(and have tried) to ally with Pakistan to flush out Osama Bin Laden in South Waziristan, because that's what we came there to do. Unfortunately, Bush was too focused on Iraq to even care about Afghanistan, lengthening the war 7 years too many.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Umm, I think it was less of "letting Emperor remain in power", and more of "deciding not to execute him along with the rest of the high command". After the American occupation, the Emperor was stripped of all his power (unconditional surrender) and divinity (we published a photo of him with McArthur, told him to do "meet and greet" with the local populace to show them that he was just as human as the rest of them, etc).
    Well true, whatever little power the Emperor had left(mostly as a divine head of state figure) was stripped from him cause of the war.

  9. #169
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Quick question for those arguing earlier in the post, it's probably derailed from there buuut I didn't have time to read through every last page this time =3

    Of those stating "the price of failure"... how do yeu define "victory"?

    Yeu literally CAN'T kill off an idea, nor a method of thought. Yeu can't stop people who WANT to fight each other from doing so... most of the troops in Afghanistan right now aren't even there for the sake of fighting actual insurgents and such, but as a military police force because the tribes that live there themselves will be at each others throats the second they don't have guns pointed at them.

    Yeu can not achieve any 'true' victory in Afghanistan. Yeu can't kill off everyone who's going to cause a problem because virtually everyone there is the problem because the tribes hate each other with such a passion. Yeu can't pull troops out to let them run their own government, because no government would be accepted; if yeu let one tribe have total power, they'd abuse it and it'd lead to a massacre. If yeu tried to get the tribes to work together, they'd refuse to accept any of the others' right to rule or make law, and nothing would ever get done because if yeu didn't have the officer from the right tribe show up to resolve a conflict, their authority would not be accepted. Yeu can't keep the surrounding regions from conflicts which spill over into Afghanistan's boarders either. Yeu can't stabilize the region from that one spot alone, and it's probably one of the worst places to start trying to stabilize a region since there's really no power base nor resources there to force the other outlying countries to play nice. In short, there is no victory to be had short of keeping them from falling into a civil war or letting the taliban or whichever other tin pot dictator chooses to run in and take over if yeu leave. Flat out, that country NEEDS someone with guns pointed at their heads to get them to stop killing each other, and the second yeu take the guns away from their heads, they'll be doing it to each other for yeu. As such, the only 'victory' yeu can ever hope to achieve there is total absolute culture absorption which will take literally decades, and may very well fall flat, and even that's not really a 'victory' in the true sense, as yeu'll have essentially conquered them, and destroyed their culture and all that made them who they were to 'save' them, meaning essentially yeu killed off an entire race and culture.

    So ... yeah... where's this supposed victory? Yeu can't claim "it's better than failure!" if there's zero opportunity to have anything OTHER than failure, which implies there must be some kind of accomplishable goal that would count as a 'victory' within the foreseeable future... so whot is it? O.o
    I'm not sure that the ethnic conflict you are talking about is inevitable--warring factions can be, and are being, bought to lay down arms. This is the politics of counterinsurgency. Granted, we definitely have to address this for any hope of long term stability. Not being an Afghan, I can't say how to fix that.

    But what is victory? Well look at why we went in. We went in because Taliban refused to give up Al Qaeda ops who attacked us on 9/11. Al Qaeda and their allies cannot be permitted to operate--they aren't compatible with US, or Western, national security. Eliminating the Taliban government (achieved) and preventing them, or any terrorist supporting government, from coming back to power is our immediate objective. It's about pursuing our enemies so that we can prevent innocents from being murdered over here.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  10. #170
    Sniffles
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    Al-Qadea operates in several countries.

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