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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    They weren't as long because of several factors. One being that they were conventional, not irregular wars. WWII: 1939-1945. US entry: 1941. Closer to in the middle, not near the end. And also guess what? We still have troops in Germany and Japan.
    I know that. Those troops aren't in the middle of an active war zone, either.

    We've been doing this thing in Afghanistan for eight years. World War II lasted for six years. The U.S. was involved for four years.

  2. #92
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I know that. Those troops aren't in the middle of an active war zone, either.

    We've been doing this thing in Afghanistan for eight years. World War II lasted for six years. The U.S. was involved for four years.
    I don't think it's reasonable to compare Germany with Afghanistan. Germany was a country who had a history of a centralized government, rule of law, bureaucracy, misc other stuff associated with civilized countries.

    Afghanistan was always a rough terrain filled with isolated fiefdoms run by warlords.

    The difference with dealing with Germany and dealing with Afghanistan is the difference between a heart surgery and cancer treatment. One is short and intense, the other involves prolonged, step by step treatment.

    That, and we didn't really do a whole lot in the last 8 years there, because we were too busy dicking around in Iraq.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  3. #93
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    If you mean to say that the US cannot win the conflict at all, then you are wrong. If we take the measures necessary for a successful counterinsurgency, there is really no reason for us not to win, unless the American public votes it down.

    The insurgents use terror tactics. In insurgencies, you use terror if you have nothing else to use. Those guys are weak, and if we stay the course we will beat them.
    I did not say you cannot win at all. You cannot win in Afghanistan, without first winning in Pakistan. It depends on the determination and the input. And, as Edgar says, on the measures of the Pakistani.

  4. #94
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    *sigh* More comparisons between WWII and Afghanistan

    The Soviet Union tried occupying the same country for 10 years with several hundred thousand troops and failed. That's a more apt comparison than post-war Germany - not least of which because it's 1) the same country and 2) the same native forces involved(the Taliban and Al-Qadea emerged from the Mujihadeen).

  5. #95
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I did not say you cannot win at all. You cannot win in Afghanistan, without first winning in Pakistan. It depends on the determination and the input. And, as Edgar says, on the measures of the Pakistani.
    OK I wasn't clear on what you meant. The Pakistan border is a clear problem and should have really been one of the first issues we fixed. Even without the help of the Pakistanis we may have some success in blocking it off ourselves, but i'm not really clear on the details of how we are acting on that.
    Johari Nohari

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  6. #96
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    *sigh* More comparisons between WWII and Afghanistan

    The Soviet Union tried occupying the country for 10 years with several hundred thousand troops and failed. That's a more apt comparison than post-war Germany.
    Well, CIA training and supplying the mujahideen didn't really work out in Soviet's favor.

    I don't think Russia will be returning the favor this time though. They have their own problems with Muslim extremists.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  7. #97
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I know that. Those troops aren't in the middle of an active war zone, either.

    We've been doing this thing in Afghanistan for eight years. World War II lasted for six years. The U.S. was involved for four years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    I don't think it's reasonable to compare Germany with Afghanistan. Germany was a country who had a history of a centralized government, rule of law, bureaucracy, misc other stuff associated with civilized countries.

    Afghanistan was always a rough terrain filled with isolated fiefdoms run by warlords.

    The difference with dealing with Germany and dealing with Afghanistan is the difference between a heart surgery and cancer treatment. One is short and intense, the other involves prolonged, step by step treatment.

    That, and we didn't really do a whole lot in the last 8 years there, because we were too busy dicking around in Iraq.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    *sigh* More comparisons between WWII and Afghanistan

    The Soviet Union tried occupying the country for 10 years with several hundred thousand troops and failed. That's a more apt comparison than post-war Germany.
    Yeah Afghanistan and WWII are completely different contexts, you can't safely compare them.

    Marmalade: if you are trying to say that length of conflict should determine success or whether we pull out, it's not a good idea. 8 years of counterinsurgency really is not a long time. Many insurgencies have lasted longer. Colombia's insurgency has been going on for 60. Colombian government has not won, but if they get their act together, there is no reason they shouldn't.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  8. #98
    Sniffles
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    Well yes of course there's differences between Afghanistan in the 80s and Afghanistan now; but it's still a more apt comparison than to occupying Germany or the Battle for Berlin.

    Only aspect of WWII that applies here are German anti-partisan operations, and in another thread I posted this link concerning German counter-insurgency campaigns in the Balkans.

  9. #99
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Why the hell don't we just take over Mexico then? They produce more oil than Iraq. And we don't have to worry about Taliban messing with any pipelines.
    The frames of seeing foreign or even domestic policy from a Nations/nationalism perspective are so outdated. Its no longer about nations, they are mostly pawns of the international corporations...They already DO own Mexico resources. There is more than one egg being catered to from the basket. Yes congress is in the pocket of the international corporations as our many other "governments".

    Its not worth getting excited about, there is nothing we can do. The claim the WMDs were BS were also a "conspiracy theory" was popular lore not too many years ago as I recall. "If the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and itís clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush Administration again." Bill O'Reilly.

    Kids, even college kids, are still being taught that the Civil War was primarily about freeing the slaves. People (most F doms) are not gonna give their lives if they are given straight dope, thus propaganda.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
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  10. #100
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Well, CIA training and supplying the mujahideen didn't really work out in Soviet's favor.

    I don't think Russia will be returning the favor this time though. They have their own problems with Muslim extremists.
    Yes. Several countries aided the mujahideen, including Communist China, and they had a safe base in Pakistan. The Soviets were also terrible at counterinsurgency there. This is the closest we could compare to, but there are still countless differences.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

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