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  1. #41
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Leave it to this board to turn a fun little "predict the candidates" discussion into an exercise in political cynicism.

    Let's see, we have plenty of "aren't the voters stupid?" arguments, an argument that every Pres since FDR committed impeachable offenses, some "process is broken" arguments, and all capped off with a Nazi comparison. Great.

    And, I have to do a double take every time I read someone mix-n-match Palin/Huckabee/Bush as though they're indistinguishable. Is this the "well, they all talk about God..." argument? Kind of a simple comparison, don't you think?

  2. #42
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Yeah Palin is way less qualified then say a junior senator who spent his entire term campaigning for president, what did he do before that? Oh right he was ACORNs slick lawyer, learning how to hold up companies for ransom.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  3. #43
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    Leave it to this board to turn a fun little "predict the candidates" discussion into an exercise in political cynicism.

    Let's see, we have plenty of "aren't the voters stupid?" arguments, an argument that every Pres since FDR committed impeachable offenses, some "process is broken" arguments, and all capped off with a Nazi comparison. Great.
    A) What is wrong with cynicism about politics?

    B) What is a more cynical facet of politics than the major party nomination process?


    And, I have to do a double take every time I read someone mix-n-match Palin/Huckabee/Bush as though they're indistinguishable. Is this the "well, they all talk about God..." argument? Kind of a simple comparison, don't you think?
    They have some similarities and some differences. They are all quite religious, they are all more personality-driven than policy-driven, and they are all certainly NOT old-school small-government conservatives.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #44
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    A) What is wrong with cynicism about politics?
    It's trite.

    B) What is a more cynical facet of politics than the major party nomination process?
    Comparing modern American politicians to Nazis.

    They have some similarities and some differences. They are all quite religious, they are all more personality-driven than policy-driven, and they are all certainly NOT old-school small-government conservatives.
    That's a pretty big net to cast. Obama would fit in that tent. I concede that you (as a libertarian and an admirer of iconoclasm in general) probably do find Palin and Obama to be quite similar, but I don't think the original comparison was intended to be that broad. More likely, the comparison was meant to link Palin and Huckabee (and to a lesser extent, Bush) as the "ign'ant, evangelical rednecks."

    I wouldn't vote for either Palin or Huckabee (I'm a yellow dog Democrat, so I'll stick with Obama unless your earlier condition of him being caught with an underage prostitute - or whatever you said - is met). That said, I do think Huckabee meets the bar of being taken seriously. He has a coherent world-view, some depth of thought, and can answer basic questions. Palin... not so much.

  5. #45
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    It's trite.
    Is it inaccurate? Not in the least.


    Comparing modern American politicians to Nazis.
    That's not cynical; it's stupid, inaccurate, and intellectually dishonest. Moreover, that comparison came from a non-American, and I took issue with it right away.


    That's a pretty big net to cast. Obama would fit in that tent. I concede that you (as a libertarian and an admirer of iconoclasm in general) probably do find Palin and Obama to be quite similar, but I don't think the original comparison was intended to be that broad. More likely, the comparison was meant to link Palin and Huckabee (and to a lesser extent, Bush) as the "ign'ant, evangelical rednecks."
    I linked Palin, Huckabee, and Bush. I did that because I wanted to paint them as the wrong kind of Republican. Granted, MOST Republicans are not the right kind, but those three are popular and stick out a lot.


    I wouldn't vote for either Palin or Huckabee (I'm a yellow dog Democrat, so I'll stick with Obama unless your earlier condition of him being caught with an underage prostitute - or whatever you said - is met). That said, I do think Huckabee meets the bar of being taken seriously. He has a coherent world-view, some depth of thought, and can answer basic questions. Palin... not so much.
    Huckabee was my absolute LEAST favorite primary candidate of the two major parties last cycle. Even more objectionable than Hillary. The GOP can do better.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #46
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    I see Bush and Palin as pretty similar, but Huckabee is in a completely different category. (I actually see Huckabee as more similar to McCain which is why he won't win.) See even though all politicians are full of crap to some degree there is still part of Huckabee that actually believes in something. He won't simply side with his party when it violates his core values. In this way he's like McCain, which is why a lot of Republicans hated McCain. McCain was against torture, so his party called him disloyal. Most Republican leaders don't like Huckabee either, because he's too sincere of a Christian. He's not a total tool of the party which is what they really want.

    Then on the other extreme is people like Romney who is a total tool, but he knows he's a tool and is perfectly ok with it. This is why Romney comes off as so fake. What makes Bush and Palin so "magical" is that they are total tools, but they aren't self aware enough to realize it. This means that people like them because they come across as sincere, while the Republican leadership can get exactly what they want. They both make the perfect Republican candidate even if they do have the disadvantage of being horrible leaders.

    With Palin Republicans win, but America loses. That is an acceptable sacrifice that the Republican party is willing to make. Just look at the eight years under Bush.
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  7. #47
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I see Bush and Palin as pretty similar, but Huckabee is in a completely different category. (I actually see Huckabee as more similar to McCain which is why he won't win.) See even though all politicians are full of crap to some degree there is still part of Huckabee that actually believes in something. He won't simply side with his party when it violates his core values. In this way he's like McCain, which is why a lot of Republicans hated McCain. McCain was against torture, so his party called him disloyal. Most Republican leaders don't like Huckabee either, because he's too sincere of a Christian. He's not a total tool of the party which is what they really want.

    Then on the other extreme is people like Romney who is a total tool, but he knows he's a tool and is perfectly ok with it. This is why Romney comes off as so fake. What makes Bush and Palin so "magical" is that they are total tools, but they aren't self aware enough to realize it. This means that people like them because they come across as sincere, while the Republican leadership can get exactly what they want. They both make the perfect Republican candidate even if they do have the disadvantage of being horrible leaders.

    With Palin Republicans win, but America loses. That is an acceptable sacrifice that the Republican party is willing to make. Just look at the eight years under Bush.

    I am not a big Romney fan, but I would rather have fake Romney than real Huckabee.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #48
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Is it inaccurate? Not in the least.
    No fair. You can't ask and answer your own question. Yeah, I do think it's inaccurate for a bunch of reasons. None of those reasons have anything to do with potential 2012 candidates.

    That's not cynical; it's stupid, inaccurate, and intellectually dishonest. Moreover, that comparison came from a non-American, and I took issue with it right away.
    I don't know. I read a poll recently that showed that a majority of Republicans believe ACORN stole the election for Obama. A few months ago, a majority of Republicans responded "not sure" or "no" when asked by a pollster if Obama is a natural-born citizen. In 2007, a majority of self-ID's liberals believed the Bush Administration was responsible for 9/11. There's a tendency now to assume that most or all politicians - particularly in the other party - are capable of anything. I'd call that cynical, and very unhelpful.


    I linked Palin, Huckabee, and Bush. I did that because I wanted to paint them as the wrong kind of Republican. Granted, MOST Republicans are not the right kind, but those three are popular and stick out a lot.

    Huckabee was my absolute LEAST favorite primary candidate of the two major parties last cycle. Even more objectionable than Hillary. The GOP can do better.
    Makes sense. I should just assume that my least favorite Republicans would be your favorite and vice versa. My least favorite Rs from last time around were Ron Paul and Mitt Romney.

    On my side of the aisle, I voted for Obama in the primaries, but only because Edwards had dropped out by then (yeah, yeah, in retrospect, an embarrassing admission). I always liked Obama, but Obama supporters were fairly annoying for the most part, what with the "New Politics," "transcending partisanship" stuff. Don't know if you saw the Jib Jab thing for '08, but I thought the rainbows and unicorns thing summed it up nicely.

    I might've been inclined to support Hillary, but I can't stand Mark Penn, and she wouldn't cut ties with him. I had visions of Bill's old crew of compromising, milquetoasty advisers back in the fold and just couldn't pull the trigger. It's a shame, cause I was actually impressed by her campaign in those last months. I admire tenacity, and wish all politicians had a bit of street-fighter in them. I think Hubert Humphrey was the original "Happy Warrior" in American politics, and I can't think of a more desirable label to earn.

    Do you have any take on up-and-coming Dems? Sherrod Brown 2016?

  9. #49
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    pure_mercury -

    Don't know if you saw this already, but it should make you happy:

    Ron Paul gains mainstream steam - Victoria McGrane - POLITICO.com

  10. #50
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    pure_mercury -

    Don't know if you saw this already, but it should make you happy:

    Ron Paul gains mainstream steam - Victoria McGrane - POLITICO.com

    That's nice, but auditing the Fed is not at the top of my political agenda. It's not as if Congress is any better at fiscal discipline than the Fed is at monetary discipline.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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