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  1. #61
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    "Free" trade only happens when the two sides have enough guns (metaphorically speaking) pointed at each other to preclude any shenanigans by the other.
    US and USSR had plenty of guns pointed at each other, yet there wasn't much trade going on. US has plenty more guns than Canada (actual and metaphoric), yet our trade is quite fluid.

    For normal trade to occur the two sides must at least not disdain each other. Just because two sides are on equal footing doesn't mean they'll cooperate with each other. That's probably the reason Rome decide to burn down Carthage afterall.
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    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    US and USSR had plenty of guns pointed at each other, yet there wasn't much trade going on. US has plenty more guns than Canada (actual and metaphoric), yet our trade is quite fluid.

    For normal trade to occur the two sides must at least not disdain each other. Just because two sides are on equal footing doesn't mean they'll cooperate with each other. That's probably the reason Rome decide to burn down Carthage afterall.
    True enough. I guess I was operating under the assumption that the two parties wanted to trade with each other (which the Soviet Union certainly did not, at least outside the outer frontier states). International ethics might apply in the case of US-Canada relations. Then again, it could be that there are enough guns on us from elsewhere (that is, Canada's other trade partners) to keep us from doing anything too crazy.

    I'm not so sure a lack of disdain is necessary, either. The average American disdained the Japanese post-war, yet trade still flourished (on relatively even-handed turns, thanks to the Soviet influence) between the nations. The European countries didn't quite like each other before WWI, but they still traded amongst themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    If being dense toward normative but infeasible statements is wrong, then I don't wanna be right.

    Or you could have replied, "Oh, I misunderstood what you were trying to say. My mistake."
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Or you could have replied, "Oh, I misunderstood what you were trying to say. My mistake."
    Here's the deal - I know what you were trying to say. I've just made it a habit not to deal with normative statements, or if so, without a whole lot of consideration. As I see it, there's no learning to be had when positions taken are simply "this should be this way" "no, this should be this way".

    I'm sorry if I offended you. Let's just call it even there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Here's the deal - I know what you were trying to say. I've just made it a habit not to deal with normative statements, or if so, without a whole lot of consideration. As I see it, there's no learning to be had when positions taken are simply "this should be this way" "no, this should be this way".

    I'm sorry if I offended you. Let's just call it even there.

    Then what was this post?

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...tml#post921848
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That's not a "should be". That's a "this is how it was".

  7. #67
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    True enough. I guess I was operating under the assumption that the two parties wanted to trade with each other (which the Soviet Union certainly did not, at least outside the outer frontier states). International ethics might apply in the case of US-Canada relations. Then again, it could be that there are enough guns on us from elsewhere (that is, Canada's other trade partners) to keep us from doing anything too crazy.
    It's not international ethics (whatever it is you mean by that) - it is the fact that Canada is ideologically and culturally similar to the U.S. We view them as an extension of ourselves, and treat them accordingly.

    I'm not so sure a lack of disdain is necessary, either. The average American disdained the Japanese post-war, yet trade still flourished (on relatively even-handed turns, thanks to the Soviet influence) between the nations. The European countries didn't quite like each other before WWI, but they still traded amongst themselves.
    By disdain I mean disdain between the governments, not people. After 1945, there was a drastic change in the political landscape. Even though an average American retained disdain for the Japanese, the American gov't decided that fostering trade should be encouraged since Japan was neutered of their military might and were no longer a threat.

    Similarly, a lot of Americans might have beef with the Chinese gov't because of their poor humanitarian record, but US gov't thinks it's cool to trade with them, so an average Joe Schmoe has pretty much no choice but to buy Chinese made goods. Even if you go out of your way to avoid things with "made in China" sticker on them, pretty much any product that has parts in it (car, washer, etc) has something made in China. On the other hand, there are probably a lot of young Iranians who are interested in American goods but have difficulty getting access to them because of their own gov't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    It's not international ethics (whatever it is you mean by that) - it is the fact that Canada is ideologically and culturally similar to the U.S. We view them as an extension of ourselves, and treat them accordingly.
    International ethics - IR theory that states have certain norms amongst themselves that aren't violated, with the knowledge that violation carries severe penalties in the global system. US doesn't invade Canada because it wouldn't be good sportsmanship, so to speak.

    You're also right in that being the situation right now. I think much of that stems from the shared prosperity in the post-World War II era.

    By disdain I mean disdain between the governments, not people. After 1945, there was a drastic change in the political landscape. Even though an average American retained disdain for the Japanese, the American gov't decided that fostering trade should be encouraged since Japan was neutered of their military might and were no longer a threat.

    Similarly, a lot of Americans might have beef with the Chinese gov't because of their poor humanitarian record, but US gov't thinks it's cool to trade with them, so an average Joe Schmoe has pretty much no choice but to buy Chinese made goods. Even if you go out of your way to avoid things with "made in China" sticker on them, pretty much any product that has parts in it (car, washer, etc) has something made in China. On the other hand, there are probably a lot of young Iranians who are interested in American goods but have difficulty getting access to them because of their own gov't.
    I'd also add that making Japan dependent on trade with the US and the West helped preclude that country from falling under the Soviet umbrella (a very real concern in the immediate post-war time period, and a potentially heavily-destabilizing event, being the first already-industrialized nation going communist).

    I'm also not so much of the opinion that our government is all that fond of China - I just think our hands are tied to the point where we make nice to keep things for both countries from going to hell in economic warfare (the "guns" in this circumstance). The supranational capitalists, on the other hand, LOVE China, which also influences our official position.

    Iran's a special case - they block because A. they have to in order to keep their legitimacy and B. they want to punish the US for overthrowing Mossadegh. We're really the petty ones in this situation - we treat them as a pariah state because of the unspoken policy since Mexico in the 1910s: if we're drilling for oil in your country, don't even think of kicking us out or face the consequences.

  9. #69
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    International ethics - IR theory that states have certain norms amongst themselves that aren't violated, with the knowledge that violation carries severe penalties in the global system. US doesn't invade Canada because it wouldn't be good sportsmanship, so to speak.

    You're also right in that being the situation right now. I think much of that stems from the shared prosperity in the post-World War II era.


    I'd also add that making Japan dependent on trade with the US and the West helped preclude that country from falling under the Soviet umbrella (a very real concern in the immediate post-war time period, and a potentially heavily-destabilizing event, being the first already-industrialized nation going communist).
    I'm guessing the presence of our troops on Japanese soil was probably the most decisive factor of preventing Japan from falling into Soviet hands.

    I'm also not so much of the opinion that our government is all that fond of China - I just think our hands are tied to the point where we make nice to keep things for both countries from going to hell in economic warfare (the "guns" in this circumstance). The supranational capitalists, on the other hand, LOVE China, which also influences our official position.

    Iran's a special case - they block because A. they have to in order to keep their legitimacy and B. they want to punish the US for overthrowing Mossadegh. We're really the petty ones in this situation - we treat them as a pariah state because of the unspoken policy since Mexico in the 1910s: if we're drilling for oil in your country, don't even think of kicking us out or face the consequences.
    I do not see a problem with punishing those states that nationalize the property of our oil companies. That shit is outright theft - it's done by a decree where the gov't basically says "what was yours is now ours". But still, we deal with Mexico even though they nationalized their oil industry. With Iran it goes a lot further than that. If there is such thing as international law, then they committed the most egregious violation of it by attacking the US embassy and holding diplomats hostage. Even the countries that attacked without the declaration of war would still respect the diplomatic staff of their enemies. That made Iran the pariah of international community more than anything else.
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  10. #70
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    I'm guessing the presence of our troops on Japanese soil was probably the most decisive factor of preventing Japan from falling into Soviet hands.
    Plenty of countries rebelled against what they saw as foreign oppressors. I realize Japan was a special case, but there were plenty of communist movements in Japan during the immediate post-war era.

    I do not see a problem with punishing those states that nationalize the property of our oil companies. That shit is outright theft - it's done by a decree where the gov't basically says "what was yours is now ours".
    So you don't think colonialism was theft in the first place? What gives a Western country any right to that oil?

    But still, we deal with Mexico even though they nationalized their oil industry.
    You think we intervened in the Mexican Revolution just for the hell of it, or were we protecting our investments?

    We also shut them off Cuba-style for the decade after that (1938). You know, when we really could have used cheap(er) oil during that slight unpleasant situation.

    With Iran it goes a lot further than that. If there is such thing as international law, then they committed the most egregious violation of it by attacking the US embassy and holding diplomats hostage.
    We overthrew their democratically-elected head of government and installed a murderous dictator in his stead. I'd say that would be the worst violation of international law imaginable. I'll cut them a break on that one.

    Even the countries that attacked without the declaration of war would still respect the diplomatic staff of their enemies. That made Iran the pariah of international community more than anything else.
    Not to mention the US and UK telling the rest of the world to ostracize Iran, then starting a proxy war which came around to bite our ass.

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