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  1. #31
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Lol. Nice try sonny but that liberty is mine. I claim it by refusing the group think. It is not gifted to me by some system nor government, freedom never is.
    Yeah, but not having your brains blown out for exercising your freedom is certainly given to you by a system of government.

    It's all hard power dynamics. Never forget this.

  2. #32
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Errm people keep quoting Churchill as a fan of democracy, he is an ideal example of the system under him only being sufficient because he made it so.

    A implies B does not imply that B implies A.

    The man blatantly ignored parts of the system when he chose so that he could do what he felt he must. The system be damned.

    Get a good one of those and dictatorship is probably the best government ever.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #33
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    You can claim it, but others can take it. Legal rights protect it.
    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Yeah, but not having your brains blown out for exercising your freedom is certainly given to you by a system of government.

    It's all hard power dynamics. Never forget this.
    Both wrong.

    Law and government don't protect it or you, they only take revenge after the fact.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #34
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Both wrong.

    Law and government don't protect it or you, they only take revenge after the fact.
    I hope you never need police or fire protection.

  5. #35
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I hope you never need police or fire protection.
    Errm... thanks.... me neither...

    Tell me though, how does having a democratic government protect you if you annoy someone and they pour petrol through your letterbox and light it? Answer is they don't. You are your own protector. Always have been. The government provides backup and professional tools.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #36
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Both wrong.

    Law and government don't protect it or you, they only take revenge after the fact.
    Wrong. Fear of reprisal is called an incentive or deterrent. This is a social good. Your analysis is undeveloped.

  7. #37
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I hope you never need police or fire protection.
    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    It's a great thing you live in a democracy and are allowed to do that.
    This is irrelevant. You aren't addressing the issue, you're making an Ethos appeal to the fact that he benefits personally from the present state of the system.

    It has nothing to do with whether Democracy is a flawed system. It shuts down the discussion at the level of "don't bite the hand the feeds you." It ignores the fact that a person, or even a majority of people, could very well benefit from an inherently flawed system in the present that should still be examined because it may contain the seeds of its own future destruction.

    You aren't making arguments, you're making appeals to a sense of propriety. Ironically, that mentality is the very antithesis of the values you claim to uphold. Even the creators of the system believed that it should still be subjected to scrutiny.

    If you're afraid that the system can't stand up to scrutiny and criticism, you must not really believe it's a good system, because good systems can stand up to the kind of scrutiny Xander is applying. If you actually believe in it, I'd like to see you defend it with analysis, not rhetoric.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    What do you make of the famous H.L. Mencken quote:
    Sound like a high brow "people are stupid" quip.

    And it's not entirely untrue. Individuals are not well suited to govern themselves, and the system is cumbersome. In theory a single individual with the best traits in leadership would be a better ruler than a sum of the average, but in reality I prefer the balances of democracy and distribution of power. Democracy forces governors to address issues to retain popularity rather than putting trust in a dictator to genuinely empathize with his or her people.

  9. #39
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Errm... thanks.... me neither...

    Tell me though, how does having a democratic government protect you if you annoy someone and they pour petrol through your letterbox and light it? Answer is they don't. You are your own protector. Always have been. The government provides backup and professional tools.
    Because such a thing happening is a very rare occurrence. It's rare because of the societal penalties that will be accrued by engaging in such an action.

    This is called civilization.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    This is irrelevant. You aren't addressing the issue, you're making an Ethos appeal to the fact that he benefits personally from the present state of the system.
    Not as much as addressing the fact that he is claiming an abstract ideal that wouldn't exist without the hard material existence of the very things he claims to be transcending.

    It has nothing to do with whether Democracy is a flawed system. It shuts down the discussion at the level of "don't bite the hand the feeds you." It ignores the fact that a person, or even a majority of people, could very well benefit from an inherently flawed system in the present that should still be examined because it may contain the seeds of its own future destruction.
    I see it more as a reminder to understand the world as it is, rather than what you think it might be.

    You aren't making arguments, you're making appeals to a sense of propriety. Ironically, that mentality is the very antithesis of the values you claim to uphold. Even the creators of the system believed that it should still be subjected to scrutiny.
    You can criticize the system by pointing out its flaws. You can't criticize it by saying it doesn't exist in the first place.

    If you're afraid that the system can't stand up to scrutiny and criticism, you must not really believe it's a good system, because good systems can stand up to the kind of scrutiny Xander is applying. If you actually believe in it, I'd like to see you defend it with analysis, not rhetoric.
    His scrutiny is immature and overly broad. It denies the very apparent reality of the world. It's as useless as saying unicorns exist.

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