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  1. #51
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    We were going to join the rest of the developed world when it came to health care eventually.
    The rest of the world is lost! Being a sheep over the cliff is one way to die!
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  2. #52
    Senior Member iamathousandapples's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avatar7 View Post
    The rest of the world is lost! Being a sheep over the cliff is one way to die!
    Following everyone else is always a bad idea! Always go the other way! Hail to the King! The world is flat!

  3. #53
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iamathousandapples View Post
    Following everyone else is always a bad idea! Always go the other way! Hail to the King! The world is flat!
    The world should follow us, not the other way around.

  4. #54
    Senior Member iamathousandapples's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    The world should follow us, not the other way around.
    Of course they should, God made us the best! Either they make the patriot act or we bomb them into next Wednesday!

  5. #55
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    Granted that I don't know you well enough to say this for sure, but I doubt that, if dying of tuberculosis in a gutter, you'd be saying "Thank goodness the government won't help me."
    The government has no money of its own. Accepting the dole means taking money forcibly extracted from others, and I do not agree with that. I would take (and have taken) unemployment temporarily, but I paid into that with every paycheck I have earned. I wouldn't take forced handouts from taxpayers, unless you count an emergency room visit I could not control and could not afford.


    You'd rather a family member suffer than accept help (which, as a taxpayer, you'd have every right to) from a government plan? Really? I have trouble believing this, Merc. What if you *can't* afford it? Saying "but I'll have enough money, because I work hard" isn't a valid response. One, you may be wrong (many, MANY hardworking people go bankrupt trying, and failing, to pay for medical bills, even when they *do* have private insurance). Two, where is this line? Is it at how much *you* can make, or how much Warren Buffett can?
    You may have trouble believing that, but you wouldn't if you knew me personally. Secondly, there is no line. It's a principle that is not based on income, other than the possibility that I would conceivably have to accept a government plan as opposed to jail or a crippling fine.


    How about teachers, police, social workers, and other people who perform great service to society but don't take home a lot of cash?
    They should get good health care through their jobs.


    Even if you consider "value to society" as a worthwhile criterion for deciding who gets health care and who doesn't, why is the ability to extract cash from the system the most important thing? Are we that morally corrupt?
    "Value to society" isn't the criterion. Ability to pay without picking the pockets of others is.


    Especially the bold, this just boggles my mind. "It's better, but I don't want it because the government is involved" seems to me to be placing ideology above functionality. I mean, these are people's lives we're talking about, here. Do you really think that a private, for-profit system will benefit people (in aggregate, and in specific) more than a public one? Or is your goal not to have health care provided, but to service the "government is bad, greed is good" ideology?
    I honestly believe that a free market in health care would be superior both to Obamacare and and single-payer, economically and socially.


    There's no doubt that our current system is convoluted and bizarre. I'm not sure that the current plan will help much (and it may make it worse *sigh*). Simplifying the process to get as much graft, corruption, etc. out of the system is a good thing - I think that we agree on that. But you have no confidence in the government, and I have no confidence in for-profit institutions. At least the government is nominally accountable to the people. A private corporation is specifically set up *not* to be accountable to its customers, but to the interests of its shareholders (ie, profit).
    Is the government even nominally accountable to the people? I don't know that it is. And are corporations not accountable to customers in the long run?


    No, that's not really what I was trying to say. What I was saying is that I don't think that *medicare*, the government program, has accelerated that as much as the nature of the industry over the last 45 years. Actions of the government (things like extending drug patents, etc) *have* been involved, no doubt. But that's not medicare's fault. I most definitely don't believe that a fully private (and unregulated) health care system would have lower costs, especially for the quality of care it could provide. I won't address education - it's a different issue, and off-topic.
    Fair enough, but I think that there are parallels. It's not a coincidence that industries with very little government regulation (like computing) improve all the time, but industries with major government intrusion (like health care, energy, and education) don't.


    Already addressed this... even if single-payer has "the likelihood of being a better system", you'd refuse it based on ideological principles? To what end? What's the upside here?
    The end is that there are ostensibly superior systems that would entail less government involvement, rather than greater.


    Perhaps the problems presented by nuclear or biological (*highly* overrated, btw - the problem of distributing a biological agent is NOT trivial) attack aren't ones that are susceptible to a purely military solution. Doesn't mean that our government isn't perfectly capable of funding, organizing, and maintaining a first-class system.
    It's enough of an issue for me to be skeptical until it's proven otherwise. Unintended consequences always exist with government action.


    First, many people think that they *should* be in the financial position to buy expensive health care. Many of those people are wrong, or get bled dry and then cast off. And you're kidding yourself if you think that a private health care "insurance" company is going to make decisions more to your benefit than the government. Like I said before, at least the government is responsible to you, as a citizen. It's not perfect... but it's also not buying luxury cars and yachts over the rejected claims of its customers, either.
    There is no reason to believe the claims of government over the claims of private industry. At least the businesspeople are straightforward about their self-interest. Have you read any Gabriel Kolko? How about the Law and Economics theorists? Government is often completely self-interested.


    And throughout all of that, there's a point I hadn't brought up... you briefly mentioned it when you don't think it's fair that the government forces us to buy car insurance. It's not for you (in most states, you're only forced to buy liability coverage that protects *others*). It's for the public good, that people can drive on the roads with confidence. A portion of the health care argument, the one that relates to communicable diseases, works the same way. Paying to ensure that others can have access to vaccines helps ensure that *you* don't get infected (vaccines don't work for 100% of the innoculated population - some vaccinated people are still susceptible to polio, for instance -- but if everyone is vaccinated, the virus can't get a good enough foothold to get into contact with the susceptible people).
    I don't want the government to take from me to protect me from other people. In the disease instance, I take precautions there already (although I believe that the government has a role in making sure there are not epidemic outbreaks). For car insurance, I would rather get my own (cheaper) insurance and have to sue uninsured assholes on the road. I've been through that already when I was the victim of a hit-and-run. I had to threaten my own insurance company with a lawsuit until they settled with an amount that covered my totaled car, my medical bills, and some extra money I used to go to Los Angeles for an internship.


    Anyway, said my bit, I think. I'm sure we'll have this conversation again - I think we've had it a few times now .
    Probably.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #56
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iamathousandapples View Post
    Of course they should, God made us the best! Either they make the patriot act or we bomb them into next Wednesday!
    The hell are you squawking about? There is a MUCH graver and real threat to your freedom going on right now other than the Patrio act, you might have heard psychotic socialists are running out government now, we're at 10% unemployment...

  7. #57
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    If the AP is correct, (and I know they frequently aren't) and this bill actually REQUIRES all companies to pay for health insurance for ALL of their employees, then I will pray hard it doesn't pass the Senate because it would put more companies out of business than any other law in history.
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  8. #58
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    I wonder how this will work if you have multiple jobs.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #59
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Why don't the people who champion this bill answer my questions? Are these questions unimportant?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #60
    Feelin' FiNe speculative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Why don't the people who champion this bill answer my questions? Are these questions unimportant?
    I'm not going to characterize forum members' comments in this thread, since I haven't read the whole thing, but I just wanted to comment on this. IRL, every single person I know who supports the bill does not know any facts about it. Zero, none. They are all basing their support on the idea that healthcare is "right." Therefore, the only thing you can argue with them on is that it is not a "right." But, since neither is a logic-based argument, you are left taking the position of not giving sick people what they need to live if you argue against the bill, which paints you as the bad guy. I'm not sure if this denotes a lack of intellect on the part of those who are pro-Obamacare, or extreme skill in rhetoric because of the position it puts those in the "no" column into...

    I think that the national agenda has completely lost sight of the fact that you can approach the same goal from many different, and opposing, angles and that that is not only a valid way of achieving the optimal outcome, but the way that our nation was designed to work in the first place...
    "How can I be, all I want to be,
    When all I want to do is strip away these stilled constraints
    And crush this charade, shred this sad, masquerade"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeq5v7L3WM

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