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  1. #31
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    There is nothing un-American about national health care - whether its single payer, Medicare For All, or just a public option.
    Let's just hope it's not run the "American way", otherwise it will be a colossal failure. Special interests will turn it into something that bankrupts us.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #32
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Did I quote you in my previous message?
    No, you definitely didn't quote me, I presumed that because I was the only previous poster talking specifically about

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    other countries
    That your direct reference to
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    other countries. The whole reason America was founded was to NOT be like other countries
    immediately after my post was in response to me.

    How did you mean for your post about America not being like other countries to be interpreted?
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What is actually in this version of the bill?
    Its 1,990 goddamn pages long, so who the hell knows? Probably not most of the people who voted for it....

  4. #34
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    So the cost of this is supposed to be offset by increased taxes, especially on the upper class, is that right? I'll look into this further tonight to be sure.

    On the discussion of whether it's a public option or a public requirement, I'll look into that, too.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Dooraven's Avatar
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    Cost is offset by increased taxes to people earning $500,000 or greater and also some cuts to Medicare spending. This bill isn't really deficit neutral as the Democrats claim but it sure isn't going to cost as much as what the Republicans are exaggerating.

    On the subject I reckon this vote was not as close as I thought it was originally. The Democrats pretty much knew they'd pass with a healthy majority so I reckon the leadership allowed some Blue Dogs to vote no due to the conservative districts they were elected in.
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  6. #36
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    There is nothing un-American about national health care - whether its single payer, Medicare For All, or just a public option.
    Recklessly (as opposed to gradualist trail-and-error for the purpose of providing a sustainable social safety net that does not excessively compromise the positive, defining aspects of our country) allowing the government that much control over the lives of its citizens IS un-American, in terms of the classical liberal principles which ostensibly comprise the inspiration, foundation, and very purpose of our country.

    Also, there are two types of patriotism, emotional and intellectual, which typically build upon each other. I do not doubt (and I very much share) your emotional patriotism, but its the civic culture and political institutions that are the reasons behind my intellectual patriotism; this legislation threatens our civic culture by making everybody vastly more dependent upon and therefore subservient to centralized government, while the degree of government control over both individuals and local polities goes against the very purpose of our federalized, divided government institutions, which are the ultimate basis (along with our immigrant population and natural wealth) of so-called "American Exceptionalism."

  7. #37
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    So the cost of this is supposed to be offset by increased taxes, especially on the upper class, is that right? I'll look into this further tonight to be sure.

    On the discussion of whether it's a public option or a public requirement, I'll look into that, too.
    Increased taxes, while not to be dismissed, are the least of my worries.

  8. #38
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    But that's the thing with health care - when you're sick, getting treatment is often not a choice. What if you get sick when you're uncovered, now? Would you expect the rest of us to say "Oh, too bad for him - let him suffer and/or die?"
    Expect it? No. Would I be depressed if it happened? Also no.

    Would you feel comfortable if it was your parent, wife, or child in that situation?
    Comfortable? No. Would I rather them face such a situation without government health care, even if it were catastrophically expensive for me? You bet your ass.


    You say that you *should* have a full-time job and benefits.. but what if you don't? What if you get laid off due to circumstances outside of your control and your coverage lapses? What if this puts you into a "preexsiting condition" category and you can't get coverage again? What if you lose your job and insurance when your child is struggling with a serious illness? Those are horrible situations to be in - and they happen to people in this country every day. Is there a cost to do our best to prevent it? Absolutely. Fortunately, we're not working with nothing, here. Pretty much every other 1st world nation on earth has an example for us to learn from. They're not all perfect, but almost all are better than what we have now - they give better results, cover a larger (usually at or near 100%) percentage of people, and do it cheaper to boot.
    I wouldn't be surprised if true single-payer were cheaper and more effective than what we have now. I still don't want it, though. I'd like to see free market reforms of what is currently a gigantic government/employer/HMO clusterfuck. My temp job right now is working for Blue Shield of California. I am helping to move retiring California public employees from their medical coverage to Medicare. It's pretty ironic for a libertarian, but it's quite instructive to see how convoluted and bizarre a system we have now.


    Probably several reasons... first of all, that elderly people (those covered by medicare), in general, require more treatment than younger people do. Due to the "prescription benefit" plan put into place a few years ago, Medicare can't bargain for drug prices.
    This has only brought up the government paying of health care up a couple of cents on the dollar, though.


    In addition to medicare/medicaid, the last 45 years have seen an explosion in drugs, tests and other procedures that are available - to illustrate my point, you could say that the costs of medical care in the 1600's (before Medicare) was cheaper too - because there wasn't nearly as much available - people just suffered and/or died. Those extra costs aren't for nothing.
    But the real cost of almost every good and service in the world has fallen. Getting a private doctor (a professional one who charged a fee) was way MORE expensive then, and the only people who could afford to pay were the wealthy landowners.

    As to the drugs, tests, and procedures, why do you think that the cost of things like health care and education rise so much faster than the rate of inflation? You don't think that government involvement has accelerated this increase significantly?


    Medicare also has lower administrative costs than most private insurers - from an efficiency standpoint it's more than competitive.
    Competition is great, but that is not the foremost objection I have here, as evidenced by disdain for single-payer despite the likelihood of being a "better" system than what we have now.


    I wouldn't debate that government housing is or can be pretty miserable. But that's really a strawman. In comparison, I could state that our (government run) military is the best in the world, so why *wouldn't* we want our government to protect our health as well as our borders? Both analogies are equally valid, and not all that helpful.
    Our military is great at blowing other militaries away. It's not nearly so good at defending us from attack, especially nuclear or biological ones. It's retarded that we have soldiers in like 80+ countries and enough nuclear firepower to destroy most of the world, but we probably could not take down ONE nuclear warhead launched by an extremist dictator in another part of the world (at least, not without significant damage somewhere along the way).


    And the profit thing... I couldn't disagree more. Do you *really* want someone who's never met you, or your family, being asked to decide between a little extra in his pocket or health for your (nameless and invisible to him) kids? Let's take it a step farther - do you want that person making that decision when it's specifically his job to increase the profits for an even more abstracted and nameless population of investors? No thanks. We've got plenty of examples around the world of government-run (or mandated and highly regulated) health care working out pretty well.
    I wouldn't want that person to do that, but I wouldn't want a government agency who has never met me or my family or my doctor or my employer making ANY health care decisions for me. If I have to buy my own expensive health care in the future to avoid this scenario, I will. I should be in the financial shape to do so. The problem now is, I will either A) pray that I covered by my employer (and many employers are going to start squeezing people out of coverage); B) have to buy super-expensive private coverage; C) get the government plan if I down on my luck (and I would absolutely despise that); or D) get fined and possibly do jail time. How in the world can that be considered fair? I don't think it's right for the government even to force us to buy CAR insurance.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #39
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Oh good, I get to pay more and get less, You are welcome non-tax payers.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    Oh good, I get to pay more and get less, You are welcome non-tax payers.
    Actually, most people who will benefit from this are tax payers.

    Stop being so arrogant.

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