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  1. #21
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    That's not how health mandates work. Look at Massachusetts, they've had one since 2006, and it's been a success so far. You're not going to jail.
    That depends on how you define success.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #22
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I think it's stupid to say America should be like other countries. The whole reason America was founded was to NOT be like other countries. If people wanted to live in other countries, they should have stayed there in the first place!
    It's not contradictory to believe in American exceptionalism and still want accessible health care for all American citizens.

  3. #23
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I think it's stupid to say America should be like other countries. The whole reason America was founded was to NOT be like other countries. If people wanted to live in other countries, they should have stayed there in the first place!
    I never said that America should be like other countries, I simply asked what he perceived to be the merit of holding on to that characteristic.

    I asked because I sympathize with some of his complaints about the health care bill, but recognize that those problems simply do not exist in other countries with a not-for-profit health care system. So what does he perceive to be the merit of holding on to the for-profit system?

    It's a pretty simple question, and it wasn't meant to be loaded like you read it to be.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  4. #24
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I think it's stupid to say America should be like other countries.
    You mean like healthy?

  5. #25
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    The whole reason America was founded was to NOT be like other countries.
    Then there are a LOT of things we need to change.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  6. #26
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I never said that America should be like other countries, I simply asked what he perceived to be the merit of holding on to that characteristic.

    I asked because I sympathize with some of his complaints about the health care bill, but recognize that those problems simply do not exist in other countries with a not-for-profit health care system. So what does he perceive to be the merit of holding on to the for-profit system?

    It's a pretty simple question, and it wasn't meant to be loaded like you read it to be.
    Did I quote you in my previous message?
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  7. #27
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I want there to be a military, although I want it reduced significantly. I do NOT want a government health care plan. I suppose I would qualify for it now, and I would have to sign up when it's mandated, but I should have a full-time job and benefits by then. If I don't, though, I will be extremely angry if my choices are government plan or compulsion to buy. It's a heinous imposition on my freedom of choice.
    But that's the thing with health care - when you're sick, getting treatment is often not a choice. What if you get sick when you're uncovered, now? Would you expect the rest of us to say "Oh, too bad for him - let him suffer and/or die?" Would you feel comfortable if it was your parent, wife, or child in that situation? You say that you *should* have a full-time job and benefits.. but what if you don't? What if you get laid off due to circumstances outside of your control and your coverage lapses? What if this puts you into a "preexsiting condition" category and you can't get coverage again? What if you lose your job and insurance when your child is struggling with a serious illness? Those are horrible situations to be in - and they happen to people in this country every day. Is there a cost to do our best to prevent it? Absolutely. Fortunately, we're not working with nothing, here. Pretty much every other 1st world nation on earth has an example for us to learn from. They're not all perfect, but almost all are better than what we have now - they give better results, cover a larger (usually at or near 100%) percentage of people, and do it cheaper to boot.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Then why have health care costs skyrocketed since the advent of Medicare and Medicaid? The government spends about 46 cents out of every dollar spent on health care in the United States. How would a major increase alleviate that situation?
    Probably several reasons... first of all, that elderly people (those covered by medicare), in general, require more treatment than younger people do. Due to the "prescription benefit" plan put into place a few years ago, Medicare can't bargain for drug prices. In addition to medicare/medicaid, the last 45 years have seen an explosion in drugs, tests and other procedures that are available - to illustrate my point, you could say that the costs of medical care in the 1600's (before Medicare) was cheaper too - because there wasn't nearly as much available - people just suffered and/or died. Those extra costs aren't for nothing. Medicare also has lower administrative costs than most private insurers - from an efficiency standpoint it's more than competitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I don't WANT the profit motive taken out of health care, and I don't government health care. Have you ever seen government housing?
    I wouldn't debate that government housing is or can be pretty miserable. But that's really a strawman. In comparison, I could state that our (government run) military is the best in the world, so why *wouldn't* we want our government to protect our health as well as our borders? Both analogies are equally valid, and not all that helpful.

    And the profit thing... I couldn't disagree more. Do you *really* want someone who's never met you, or your family, being asked to decide between a little extra in his pocket or health for your (nameless and invisible to him) kids? Let's take it a step farther - do you want that person making that decision when it's specifically his job to increase the profits for an even more abstracted and nameless population of investors? No thanks. We've got plenty of examples around the world of government-run (or mandated and highly regulated) health care working out pretty well.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #28
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    It's not contradictory to believe in American exceptionalism and still want accessible health care for all American citizens.
    Agreed, but that doesn't change what I said at all. Also, wanting "accessible health care" is different from enacting said health care with government force.

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    You mean like healthy?
    I mean exactly what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Then there are a LOT of things we need to change.
    Agreed.
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  9. #29
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I think it's stupid to say America should be like other countries. The whole reason America was founded was to NOT be like other countries. If people wanted to live in other countries, they should have stayed there in the first place!
    No, that's incorrect. The founding fathers sought independence for their colony for mostly economic reasons, but also for some matters of political autonomy. In doing so, they heavily drew from Brittish and French political thought to design their new nation. Neither motive nor form was based simply on trying to be different, and while the founding fathers didn't agree on much, I'm sure they'd agree on that.

    I, however, don't care what they think anyway. I just want good things for people. I notice that all the first world nations other than the USA have better living standards, more equality, and aren't really suffering for it economically, like a lot of american libertarians would tell you. So, that looks like a good thing for people, hence why I want the US to be a bit more like the other first world nations.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Agreed, but that doesn't change what I said at all. Also, wanting "accessible health care" is different from enacting said health care with government force.
    Government force? Yeah, right after they send all our kids to re-education camps, right Comrade? Thank God we have those freedom-loving insurance companies steadfastly opposing this march to socialism. Silly.

    How far along are you on the "government = enemy" scale, anyway? Social security ok with you? Medicare? Public schools? Military?

    On a 1 - 10 scale of patriotism, I'd probably register an 11. I love my country, and I don't need a qualifying statement to add to that. There is nothing un-American about national health care - whether its single payer, Medicare For All, or just a public option.

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